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If the title of this thread were the Vileness of the Sinner then I woukd agree there is merit in saying the sinner is vile. But this thread presupposes that you are speaking of those redeemed in Christ. Saints in other words. The word 'saint' meaning 'sanctified'. The implicatiion being one who is set apart for God. Holy in other words.
In reading through this thread I see either some willfully or ignorantly choose to exalt their vileness. In some perverse way you think you are exalting Christ. But you are exalting yourself. You are forgetting the cross and the work of Christ to redeem sinners, yes, vile sinners. But not to make vile saints.
I have heard of meetings where people would out do one another to see who was the most vile. They would hide under the pew or crawl down to the altar. Probably shouting 'I am vile. I am vile'. How is this exalting Christ?
The New Testament says 'It is because of him we are in Christ Jesus who has become for us wisdom from God. That is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Therefore as it is written let him who boast boast in the Lord.'
Ok. Some may want to boast in their vileness. I choose to boast in Jesus who is my righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Halleujah! What a Savior!
Bearnaster standing down.
| 2012/4/6 11:54|
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Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Is this not where we are to keep our praise, thinking on these things.
Ps 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
2Co 13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
What is a perfect man?
Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
The Christ in me is perfect and where the Lord dwells must be perfect. If the perfect Christ does not dwell in us then we are according to scripture as vile as it gets and sentenced to death and eternal Hell.
So now we live in perfect peace by Him that is born again in us. How can He that is perfect live in a vile person?
This is our standing before God, this is who I am, this is not what I was or what I am now. This is who I am in right standing before God. I still can get rid of this vile flesh that I still live in and that will be the total completeness of who I am in Christ. In whom we are also called sons of the living God. Not the only begotten of Mary but by the Spirit of Christ in me, who is perfect.
Not as though I have attained perfection in the flesh, but by the perfection who now lives in my spirit, I press on for the upward calling in Christ Jesus who gave Himself for me and now lives in me by His own Spirit.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I live because He lives, and I fall He is my Advocate who lifts me up. When convicted of sin, all we have to do is confess our sin and He who is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteous allow me to keep going forward to that upward calling that "as He is in this world so are we," being change from glory to glory, line upon line, precept upon precept being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ who is now my Spirit.
In Christ: Phillip as a son by the Son that is in me in whom there is no vileness.
Who gets all the Glory for changing me from a vile sinner to a son?
| 2012/4/6 17:58||Profile|
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How can He that is perfect live in a vile person?
| 2012/4/6 21:01|
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If the title of this thread were the Vileness of the Sinner then I woukd agree there is merit in saying the sinner is vile.
Sinners definitely are vile, are you not a sinner? I haven't met anyone who wasn't a sinner. I have met lot's of people who didn't believe they were sinners, but just a little digging usually brings the truth of their sinnership out.
But this thread presupposes that you are speaking of those redeemed in Christ. Saints in other words. The word 'saint' meaning 'sanctified'. The implicatiion being one who is set apart for God. Holy in other words.
Remember the Pharisee who thanked God that he wasn't a sinner 'like this publican'. He couldn't bring himself to see that he had the same vileness in him that the publican did. The reality is that he WASN'T like the publican, the publican was saved, the Pharisee was not.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
| 2012/4/6 21:15|
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And by Grace are we not perfect before God and this is our striving, to be in our labour as Christ is in this world, so are we?
Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
It is impossible for me to rid myself with the vileness you speak of. All that God has done in Christ has made the deliverance of this vileness possible. It truly is by Grace and the work of Christ on the Cross, cleansing me from all unrighteousness by His own Blood.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2012/4/6 21:17||Profile|
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Yes Joe we can all agree with you that you are the vilest person on the planet but to make vile the precious word of God to your vile understanding is to desecrate the word of God in using it in a way to persecute and try to weaken the people of God is a vileness that you shouldnt want to have to answer to God for so be not high-minded but fear and repent of this thy wickedness before God.
| 2012/4/6 21:29||Profile|
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Yes sir I had read Wesleys' admission, and it seemed apparent by the fruit of his ministry after "hearing" the word of God.
While listening to Paris Reidhead again last night this thread and your stand here came to mind, "oh dear heart, when you see yourself you'll know you'll never be anything other than what you are" the defeated tone of his voice itself confessed the humility of finality in his revelation, as if to say-the only thing fitting for me is crucifixion.
Once our associate pastor had responded to me by saying,"it's not a bad thing to want to be,...but it's a bad thing to try to be the Holy Spirit. He is really good at His job and doesn't need you to do it for Him" this was said in response to my trying to "prove a point","bring conviction" which it would appear that some here have fallen into that ditch also,...
If I may be permitted to ask that any/all on this thread who are truly vested in the Love of the Truth ( 2 Thess 2:10-12) to join in asking the Lord to answer this question of ours,...
R.A. Torrey had a technique, if you will, for addressing just this sort of thing and helped saints grow in maturity bringing a greater harvest to the glory of God, which I trust is our "common ground"
Torrey's method, and I'd ask that we all participate in this, is to agree to offer this prayer each day; "Lord, show me myself" once we have entered into His presence having seen ourselves there is another prayer that Torrey would then offer, which for any interested would be humbly offered here as well. I have hope in my faith that He will receive a mature return on His investment in us, until then...
| 2012/4/7 0:31||Profile|
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Any one that is under the new covenant is more perfect than anyone in the old.
verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greather than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater then he.
The most vile person in the new covenant is still less vile then the holiest man in the old.
Although we may in many aspects be vile and horrible creatures, in some ways i can agree to this having seen my own nature and what i am capable of, yet i thrust my entire being upon this word of God
Joh 17:23...and that the world may know that hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou has loved me.
in spite of my or any childs vileness, God loves me/us in the exact same way as he loved His son Jesus Christ.
So no matter how vile we where or are, if we are born again the wonderful thing is i am loved by God in the same way God loved his son, and God will do for me what he did for his Son.
God bless you all.
| 2012/4/7 2:24||Profile|
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I posted this elsewhere, but it applies here as well.
Again in 7:14 the Apostle says: I am carnal, sold under sin. That is the proof of a spiritual and wise man. He knows that he is carnal, and he is displeased with himself; indeed he hates himself and praises the Law of God, which he recognizes because he is spiritual. But the proof of a foolish, carnal man is this, that he regards himself as spiritual and is pleased with himself. Martin Luther Commentary of the Romans Chapter 7.
| 2012/4/8 13:33|
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I posted this elsewhere, and it still applies here, more than ever.
"What shall we say then - This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom_8:2."
John Wesley, commentary on Romans Chapter 7.
Thank GOD ~ Paul Knew Victory through The Victor! Amen :)
| 2012/4/8 13:39|