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 Re:

Quote:
The carnal man can delight in that law which he believes justifies him, but only a saved man such as Paul can delight in that law which he knows condemns him.

OJ



I'm not trying to be rude by not answering sooner - it's just that you already know that I firmly believe from ALLLL that Paul wrote on sin, that Romans 7 is Paul putting himself in the place of what he once was [when he 'did' delight in the law - as David did in Ps 119 and other OT Saints] and whomever else that tries to be justified by The Law and what happens to them.

I've always held this view, but thanks to you, I did find Wesley's view since this thread, 'after' I first answered WhiteStone on it, requesting that Romans 6 and 8 be read first to see if Paul considered himself "a slave to sin or the flesh".

Wesley expresses it very well and I couldn't agree with him more.
If you have fed yourself on the New Testament fully-fully - I do believe that one would see this in Paul and not himself in Rom 7.

Wesley again:

"This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter, wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom_8:2."



Good day!

 2012/4/5 13:41
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Jig it just does make sense

Quote: Paul putting himself in the place of what he once was

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul says that touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Why would he say he was blameless when touching the righteousness in the law and if there was any man who could have confidence in the flesh it was him.

Then turn around and say he in misery of being under that law.

No what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus is what took away his confidence in the flesh and the righteousness in the law, it was after his conversion as the truth came to him that he found out that "in him there was no good thing"


_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/4/5 18:48Profile









 Re:

Brother Colin, "Spain"? I didn't know that. When did that happen? Now who can I ask what's happening in that country that I was concerned over?



Well anyway - that's why I love Phil 3:7-15 so much. Just posted that elsewhere, so as usual - repeating myself, but at my age, we're allowed to, they say.

GOD Bless and appreciate your posts. Love 'is' the fulfillment of the law. Thanks for posting it!

 2012/4/5 21:10
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

What country are you concerned over? Scotland

Edited profile and this post: I will be in either of these countries, in fact I am traveling back from Spain to Scotland as I write this I am sitting in Paris.

Then on Tuesday I will travel to Nigeria...

Think of it this way you now have three countries you can ask about.




_________________
Colin Murray

 2012/4/6 4:41Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul says that touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Why would he say he was blameless when touching the righteousness in the law and if there was any man who could have confidence in the flesh it was him.

Then turn around and say he in misery of being under that law.



Paul never said that "concerning the law, I have become righteous in God's sight by my ability to keep the law."

Notice that he said, "If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:" and then goes on to list his fleshly accomplishments. The things that come next are all things that Paul accomplished in his flesh, apart from God. He was an honorable and true Jew. He was a Pharisee (Which made him virtually walk on spiritual water to the unwashed masses). He was zealous of very orthodox Judaism. He lives so that no man could bring blame against him concerning living under the law. So he could glory in his flesh before men. But not before God. Look back to Romans 4 and the context under which Paul is writing this letter. He, like Abraham, had whereof to glory, but not before God because he was doing these things out of his own flesh rather than out of the Spirit.

Second is the term wretched. Paul never said, "I was miserable under the law." as we would think of emotional misery. He says, "Oh wretched man that I am. Who shall save me from the body of this death?" Paul recognizes now that he is born again that to continue to try to please God through attempts at keeping the law is vanity and leads to death, eternally. This means that the man who is trying through the flesh to obtain righteousness is in a wretched condition.

So the righteousness he speaks of here is not right standing before God, but rather right standing before men through the flesh. You see, Paul is describing the utter futility of trying to be right in God's eyes by works of the flesh. He says, "Look guys, if I, who have so much going for me in the flesh, could not be found right in God's eyes through my own goodness, then where does that leave anyone?"

And yes, when Paul encountered Jesus Christ for who He really was it did demolish everything Paul had built on his own effort. He did come to the end of himself. What I praise God for was the faithfulness of Annanias who obeyed God and ministered to Paul.


_________________
Travis

 2012/4/6 8:26Profile









 Re:


I am Rot!

 2012/4/6 8:51









 Re:

I praise you because I am fearfully and
wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
Psalm 139:14

Thank you God that you do not make junk.



 2012/4/6 9:41









 Re:

Quote:
That is true, brother Joe.

And what does this verse tell you?

1 John 3:8
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Pilgrim



That verse says and means several things, but in regards to current context it tells me that residing in any man who is not sinless (and none are) lies a nature very much like the devil, which though subdued is still capable of any evil.

The verse below says that we must acknowledge and take full responsibility for this evil and can neither blame it on the devil nor ask forgiveness on his behalf for doing it in us.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Without even committing a sin, even the proneness to sin is a grievous evil.

OJ

 2012/4/6 10:16









 Re:

JIG

FWIW

I have read most of Wesley's sermons, did you ever notice that by his own admission he was lost when he preached many of them. It wasn't until hearing Luther's commentary on the Romans where he was finally saved, that he even began to understand who he was and who God was. Towards the end of his life his views changed as he started to see a little more clearly, so when reading Wesley it will do you good to know Wesley at the beginning is not the same as Wesley at the the end.

Here is from the mature Wesley for you.

“The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley


ETA
Lost men delight in the law of God after the outward man, the inward man has to do with the heart, and no lost man ever delighted in the law of God from the heart.


OJ

 2012/4/6 10:23









 Re:

Recapping a bit here. The respected men of yesteryear (quoted below) whose ministries have passed the test of time, have crossed denominational boundaries to agree on the Christian’s recognition of his own vileness as a distinctly Christian endeavour; whereas most of those here loudly proclaim “I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked”. Let each reader decide for himself, as each will be responsible for his own soul.


“Man draws nearer to God in proportion as he withdraws farther from all earthly comfort. And he ascends higher to God as he descends lower into himself and grows more vile in his own eyes. He who attributes any good to himself hinders God's grace from coming into his heart, for the grace of the Holy Spirit seeks always the humble heart.” - Thomas A Kempis

“The same love which fills a man with zeal for God, makes him little, and poor, and vile in his own eyes.” - John Wesley

“And when a man has gone far enough, so to speak, to be introduced to God Himself, he will be sure to think afterward very little of himself. Yes, if anything can make us feel our littleness, it must be a view of His wisdom; if anything can make us sensible of our weakness, it must be the view of His almighty sovereignty; if anything can make us feel our depravity, it must be the view of His spotless purity, -- the spotless purity of Him "who is of purer eyes than to behold iniquity, and in whose sight the very heavens are not clean." - W. Jay

“JOB did not always think so. While at a distance from God—he could boast, argue, and contend with God! But when brought into the presence of God's holiness—the contrast was so striking, that he sunk down in astonishment, clothed with shame, and filled with self-loathing! The manifestation of God's glory to a sinner—always produces the same effect! – James Smith

"We are sure that what Job was forced to say, we may each of us assent unto, whether we be God's children or not; and if we be partakers of divine grace, it becomes a subject of great consideration for us, since even we, although we be regenerated, must exclaim, each one for himself, "Behold, I am vile."" C.H. Spurgeon

“The great object of the Lord has been attained. Job changes his mind -- his whole attitude -- both as to himself and as to God. Humbled to the dust, he condemns himself and glorifies the Lord. And this is what God had in view from the beginning. And it is what all must reach in one way or another who are saved by His grace."- H.A. Ironside

"The man that understands the evil of his own heart, how vile it is, is the only useful, fruitful, and solid believing and obedient person. Others are fit only to delude themselves, to disquiet families, churches, and all relations whatever." –John Owen

"In the light of this it is not hard to see why the Christian's attitude toward self is such an excellent test of the validity of his religious experiences.
A good rule is this: If this experience has served to humble me and make me little and vile in my own eyes it is of God; but if it has given me a feeling of self-satisfaction it is false and should be dismissed as emanating from self or the devil." A.W. Tozer

“The light that comes in a special way from Christ, is humbling, abasing, and soul-emptying light; by it a man feels the vileness of his own nature and practice, which begets self-loathing in him; but natural light, on the contrary, puffs up and exalts, makes the heart swell with self-conceitedness (1 Cor 8:1).” – John Flavel

“The clearer the discoveries which Christ makes of Himself, the more humbled shall we be under a sense of our own vileness.” – W.Cardall

“Why are true and sound believers so ready to profess their unworthiness? They have a deeper sense of God's majesty and greatness than others have, and also a more broken-hearted sense of their own vileness by reason of sin. They have a more affective light and sight of things; God is another thing to them than before, so is sin and self.” –Thomas Manton

“The more we think of His patience while we are rebelling, of His mercy in pardoning us and adopting us into His family after all our provocations, the more shall we be affected with our vileness in offending Him.” W. Jay

“The truly humble man, since the fall, is also sensible of his moral meanness and vileness” –Jonathan Edwards


OJ

 2012/4/6 10:29





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