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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Jake, if I go to one "group" and they have a "visitation" which they say is the the Holy Spirit and this spirit says that x=1, what happens if I go to another "group" and they have a "visitation" which they say is the the Holy Spirit and this spirit says that x=2?

Who do I believe?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2005/1/31 11:59Profile









 Re:

Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

 2005/1/31 13:07
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

There's a big difference between putting God to the test and testing against the Word of God those who claim to speak for Him.


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2005/1/31 13:42Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Christianity v Jake-ism

Quote:
Do quarkers even test and try the spirit to see if it be of God?


I think it is important to reiterate my point that we are not discussing Quakerism here, but Jakeism. Jake is not representative of the Quakerism of George Fox and Robert Barclay. George Fox endorsed Robert Barclay, but Jake denegrates him.

Jake is an 'unprogrammed Quaker' which means their meetings are open to the moving of the Spirit rather than following a prescribed service. In the UK most Quaker meetings are unprogrammed. My understanding is that most 'programmed Quakers' would have a greater sympathy with the evangelical position than does Jake.

Orange County Friends Meeting is unprogrammed and has this explanation on its website.

Outward differences in worship style mirror inward differences in belief and religious practice. [u]Programmed meetings tend to profess an evangelical, Christ-centered message based on an infallible Bible; unprogrammed meetings tend away from these things.[/u] Unprogrammed meetings are often called liberal, unprogrammed conservative. This is probably a fair characterization if you're willing to overlook a lot of details, but is probably a mistake. The issue is complex.
This acknowledge, by a unprogrammed Quaker meeting is very plain in that such groups [i]'tend away from' 'an evangelical, Christ-centred message based on an infallible Bible.'[/i]

So there has been a double dividing of the ways in modern Quakerism. They have split on the pattern of worship and on fundamental authority. The George Fox Quakers would have been 'unprogrammed' in their meetings but professing an evangelical, Christ-centered message based on an infallible Bible.

The real spirit of Quakerism which you can read in the Journal of George Fox was very different from the modern decadence. They confessed the incarnate Son of God, virgin born, crucified, dead and raised. I have not just picked that point out of the hat. The full quotation of which I quoted part reads; [b]Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; (1Jo 4:1-2 NASB)[/b] The phrase 'come in the flesh' is a clear pointer to Christ's existence as God's unique Son before His incarnation. This is not rational for Jake so he will tell you it's not important to him. What he means is that he can't believe it.

So you have a 'spirit' leading Jake which will not confess that Jesus Christ 'came' in the flesh. It is hardly surprising that Jake is not willing to 'test' it by this criterion.



_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/31 14:00Profile









 Re:

QUote: This is probably a fair characterization if you're willing to overlook a lot of details, BUT IS PROBABLY A MISTAKE. The issue is complex.

In my case, as in many others, this characterization is not accurate, AND the text says so, but Ron conveniently overlooks this in order to distort and denigrate my beliefs. One thing you will learn from Quakers is that there is a wide variation in interpretation and beliefs. People are allowed to think for themselves and are challenged to carry their beliefs into the world. This is why so many Quakers you will find are involved in disaster relief, charity, medical assistance, education and other worthy "help" professions. Friends are all challenged to bring their beliefs into action.

Ron says: "The phrase 'come in the flesh' is a clear pointer to Christ's existence as God's unique Son before His incarnation. This is not rational for Jake so he will tell you it's not important to him. What he means is that he can't believe it."

Ron, you are putting words in my mouth, and they are a lie. I freely confess that Jesus is Christ, Son of God, and you have known this for some time now. Moreover, it is a mystery that I accept; I know that I will never fully understand it.

I depend upon His promise to be available to us in the Here and Now through the presence of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, this presence is TRUTHFUL and is not to be tested, as Jesus pointed out. It is to be followed.

Jake

 2005/1/31 14:22
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In my case, as in many others, this characterization is not accurate, AND the text says so, but Ron conveniently overlooks this in order to distort and denigrate my beliefs.

If I had wanted to distort I would have omitted it. This is why I gave the URL so that peopel could check it out. Your accusation that I endeavoured to distort is quite wrong. God is my witness.

Quote:
Ron, you are putting words in my mouth, and they are a lie. I freely confess that Jesus is Christ, Son of God, and you have known this for some time now. Moreover, it is a mystery that I accept; I know that I will never fully understand it.

I know that you are happy with this form of words but I know that you are unhappy to say that God came into flesh by incarnation. You believe, I suspect, that He attained to godness but virtue of his life. Let me hear you say 'I believe that Jesus Christ is God become flesh' (not man become God, but God become man)

Quote:
I depend upon His promise to be available to us in the Here and Now through the presence of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, this presence is TRUTHFUL and is not to be tested, as Jesus pointed out. It is to be followed.


His promise was not made to you, Jake. It was made to those who believed on him through the testimony of his disciples. That testimony is enshrined in the scriptures infallibly. You cannot reject their testimony and accept their Master.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/31 14:35Profile









 Re:

"but I know that you are unhappy to say that God came into flesh by incarnation."

Wrong, again. Jesus was God incarnate.

"His promise was not made to you, Jake."

Another astonishing lie from Ron.

 2005/1/31 15:33
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
"but I know that you are unhappy to say that God came into flesh by incarnation."

Wrong, again. Jesus was God incarnate.

"His promise was not made to you, Jake."

Another astonishing lie from Ron.



I notice you still haven't used my words. Tell me Jake, do you believe that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ through virgin conception? Let me hear you say 'I believe that Jesus Christ is God become flesh' (not man become God, but God become man)

His promises are all specific and conditional. If you will not accept the testimony of His witnesses how can you claim His promises?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2005/1/31 19:10Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: exercising is good for the body

There are exercisies we must apply to spiritual gifts and to thoughs who make claim of being used in such.Where in the Bible(ie. Torah, Septugent) ,teaching of Christ or Oral tradition passed down through the centuaries is the testing of spiritual giftings prohibited. The spiritual man judges all things.In Matt 4:7 we see here that Jesus uses your illistration against satan but in the context of seeing if God will perform His word inorder to validate something Jesus already knew to be true. It is of interest to me That Jesus quotes scripture and seems to really enjoy the Book of Deut. Or the second rendering of the Law. From the begining instruction was given to test the words we hear or the spiritual things -- Deut.13:1-5 and so it follows through out scripture. If its from God the Holy Spirit He will in no way be offended if we seek to do right in testing that which has been recieved,I dare say He will no doubt reward us for our diligence as those who seek Him with an honest heart to know of a certainity the Things of the Spirit. To do other wise would be to show in some measure spiritual laziness , and open our selves up to deceptions of various sorts.I believe exercise is good for the body of Christ 1Cor 14:29-32 and must be applied at all times, no exceptions! Other wise we become blind leaders of the blind a most pitiful state and one which niether glorifies Jesus Christ or moves with His Power.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/1/31 19:22Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

This has been interesting to me since its not to often I've seen the application of this word used in its literal sense, where confession of Jesus Christ as messiah- eternal God come in the flesh through the virgin birth , applied.That is in trying to get someone to confess it.BTW -As I was in prayer today, Ron , I was impressed to lift you up for prayer as well as the others here in on SI but you mostly as one who would be found faithful in the defense of the gospel and the integrity of God's Word.I found that interesting as I normally just pray in general for all of you but The Lord laid some specifics on my heart this time.I had a sensing of one who stood in protection over something.Just thought I'd mention that.


_________________
D.Miller

 2005/1/31 20:25Profile





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