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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : An omniscient God foresees Christ yet establishes law 'forever'

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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

theEphah wrote, quote;

"""Abraham didn't have a temple, I guess he didn't get that memo that he needed a temple to keep those commandments."""

We are Gods Temple, and Christ lives in His temple, He ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit also, and we are His temple also, so Jesus cannot sin or the Holy Spirit either.
Abraham did not have Christ in Him, but his faith and obedience were counted to him as righteosness. Our faith and obedience since the Cross, is in Christ Jesus who is now our Spirit and the Holy Spirit consumnes our soul, this body has been quickened to contain the whole bucket of Grace through Faith, that being our Law by Jesus Christs works in us. This is the perfect Law of the of liberty in Christ of whom I labour (works of the fulfilled Law) by the works of Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of the Law in me, of whom His mighty works in me make me perfect and complete in the fulfillment of the Law in Christ Jesus.

Of my own self I cannot attain to the righteousness of the Law and either could all Israel. When God came to this earth they did not receive Him. We the Sheep of His pastures will hear His voice when He comes for His Bride, His body, the Church.

If you test yourself in the Law ourside of Jesus Christ born again in you, you cannot be saved. Selfrighteousness is not the plan of salvation, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, that He is the only begotten Son of God and you will be saved".

The letter of the Law kills by judgement of the inability to keep the whole of it perfect. The Spirit of the Law in Christ in you the Hope of Glory and by His works which work in me mightily I am perfect before our Father.

These are my works of Labour in the Law of liberty in Christ where there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus our Lord. Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. This is my Law.

Know this: The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit will be going to the strip club in/with you, enjoy.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2012/1/11 2:42Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2256
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
--Christinyou --
Quote:

Do you keep all the commandments?



Yes I keep it all. But Lovefirst has informed me that I'm on the wrong path so I have abandoned it for some hot chicks.



theEphah

I have been reading with some interest the exchange. You say that you keep the law and I believe you are sincere in thinking that you do keep the whole law. Unfortunately scripture plainly states that you and I are incapable of keeping the law. "For what the law could not do in that it was weak in the flesh, God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh..." Romans 7. You see, if you are relying on your ability to keep the law to enter into or to maintain right relationship with God you are unfortunately under a strong deception. The Jews were and still are under the same deception. The writer of Hebrews I believe it is (I am writing from memory this morning) says that to this day a veil is over their eyes at the reading of the law.

You see, if we keep the whole law and yet offend in one point we are guilty of the whole thing. So if you are trusting in your ability to keep the law to be righteous you are lost already with no hope of redemption because you have broken the law in some part. Now you might say that your initial righteousness comes by grace through faith, but after that you must keep the law. Paul wrote the entirety of the letter to the Galatian church to counter that argument, and his words are crystal clear and cannot easily be convoluted.

You implied by your response that to believe that we are no longer under the law is to cast off holiness and go after "some hot chicks". When one relates to God through their flesh rather than through the work of Jesus Christ, grace, and the Holy Spirit this is the only logical conclusion. The law served to restrain sin at a time when it was not possible for man to be regenerated in his Spirit and walk in the Spirit. But a man who has experienced the grace of God through Jesus Christ and walks in the Spirit has the law-giver dwelling within Himself and has been made new in the spirit. This is what Jeremiah meant when he prophecied that God would write his laws on our hearts. You see, I live a very holy life. Some would think it strange the way I live. I have never smoked a cigarette, never tasted alcohol, don't watch T.V., rarely read anything that is not authored by a believer and about the Lord, etc., etc.. But all this is worth NOTHING when it comes to being right in God's sight. It is simply the outflow of listening to the Holy Spirit and being obedient. It is the work of God in my life because I am born again, regenerated by the Spirit. It is not because I am keeping the law.

theEphah: I pray that you will not desire to defend a position that you have come to believe and to prevail in an argument to the extent that you will not prayerfully and carefully study the scriptures to see if what I and others here are saying is not true. It is a terrible strain to try to make Paul's writings say something other than what they say as the man was so crystal clear and consistent in his message. I know of people in the Hebrew roots movement who have now said that Paul was not inspired of God and that have thrown out his writings as not in the canon because they could not reconcile what they had chosen to believe with what the Bible clearly teaches. They would not let the Bible stand in the way of what they believed. Please study it carefully and ask God to reveal truth to you. The consequences of relating to God by law are eternal.


_________________
Travis

 2012/1/11 8:26Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Law-keeping will damn your soul. Which is why you must be led by the Spirit. Romans 7 makes this abundantly clear. If you live by the Law, you shall die by the same. But if you live by the Spirit, you will never be an obligor to the flesh.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/1/11 8:47Profile
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 341


 Re:

DEAR pilgrim777

QUOTE-
This is probably the clearest and most understandable article I have read on the Law of God. This article should liberate the confused. by James Fowler.
END QUOTE-

SWEET!

THANKS FOR POSTING THIS.


_________________
J Kruger

 2012/1/11 9:41Profile









 Re:

-- Christinyou, twayneb, KingJimmy, pilgrim777--

Christians are not under the law. --- We get it.
Christians are saved by grace. ------ We get it.

Sola fide (Latin) is a Christian theological doctrine of justification by faith alone. (we Get It!)

But note: The Jews didn't keep the Law either. Even when Moses was still alive they rebelled. Read it for yourself. Only a small minority upheld the commandments. They made the same excuses as we do today.

The Roman Catholics didn't keep the law either, as a matter of fact, they are responsible for doing away with the Law.

Daniel 7:25 He will speak against the Most High, He will try to change their sacred festivals and laws.

Unless you've been living under a rock, you will know that the Papacy changed the Sabbath worship from Saturday to Sunday fulfilling Daniel 7:25

They changed the holy feast days of Yahweh to festivals like All Saints Day (the worship of the dead which is still celebrated today)I won't get into all the abominations to keep the post short and simple.

Protestants are daughters of the Catholic church hence carrying a lot it it's man made traditions. Everybody in Christandom knows this fact you can't deny it.

"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Mark 7:7)

This generation was born into corruption and deceit of the worst kind. Isaiah 1:4

Ah, sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly!

For this reason brethren

"the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell in it are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. Isaiah 24:6

Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire.. Malachi 4

Do you know where you stand in prophesy? Take your Christianity eye glasses off and you might come close to the truth.

Halləlûyāh

 2012/1/11 10:20
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Christians are not under the law. --- We get it.
Christians are saved by grace. ------ We get it.



No. You don't.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/1/11 10:33Profile









 Re:

--KingJimmy--

Quote:
Law-keeping will damn your soul.



why are you upset? Relax. After all you are saved by grace.
I'm just a condemned lost soul with nothing better to do than hang out on forums confusing people. I know, I am a very evil person for keeping them old laws. LoL

 2012/1/11 10:52
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

why are you upset?



I'm actually not upset in the slightest. Quite calm.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/1/11 10:56Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I wrote the following as part of a larger article on Romans 6-8. It describes, in brief, the relationship of the Christian to the law, and what it means to "keep" and "obey" the law today.

Read the following link for the full essay: http://www.iamadisciple.com/articles/freedominchrist.php

...
Romans 7: Freedom from the Law

Do you know what it’s like to have that one vice that you just can’t seem to get over? You resolve to quit. You swear to yourself, to your family, and to God that you are going to stop. Yet for all your resolutions, for all your willing, and all your swearing, you still find yourself doing the same thing over and over again. You really want to stop, but you just can’t bring yourself to do it! If this is you, then I believe if you rightly understand Romans 7, you will come to understand why it is you are in such a rut, and as a result, will learn how to escape from this never ending cycle of stumbling.

In Romans 7, Paul continues his discussion on sin as it relates to the believer. Thus far in Romans, Paul has established all men everywhere have sinned, and deserve to be punished for those sins. But through God’s grace and the power of the cross, those who believe in the Lord have been liberated from the power of sin. Indeed, the believer is said to have died with Christ to sin, and is said to have been freed from its power.

But if that is all that Paul would’ve told us, he would’ve only told us half the story. For in Romans 7, we learn that when we died with Christ, not only did we die to sin, but we died to something else altogether. And what else did we as believers die to? Not only did we die to sin, but we also died to the Law of God! And this death to the Law of God was necessary if we as believers are to walk in the freedom that Christ has called us to walk in. Otherwise, as we shall see, we would still be in bondage, and slaves to sin. For sin gains its power through the Law. (7:11)

It comes as a shocker for many Christians to hear this very thing. It almost sounds blasphemous and heretical. Not only have you died to sin itself, but through the death of Christ, you have also been made to die to the very Law of God. And by this Paul isn’t merely talking about the ceremonial aspects of the Law, or its dietary restrictions. Rather, he is talking about the entire body of God’s Law, not only as revealed through universal and natural law, but as also revealed in the very Ten Commandments given to Moses on Mt. Sinai.

Paul opens up with an illustration. In Romans 7:1-3, he asks us to consider marriage. As long as one is living, a woman who is married is bound by the law to be faithful to her husband, and to have sexual relations to him alone. But, if her husband should die, the law no longer has jurisdiction over her life, and she is free to marry whomever she wants without being considered an adulteress. But so long as her husband remains alive, the law has jurisdiction over her life, and should she have sexual relations with another person, then the law can speak to her predicament and judge her as an adulteress.


In the same way then, when you as the believer were crucified with Christ on the cross, you died to the jurisdiction the Law had over your life. We who have been crucified with Christ have been “made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.” (7:4) The Law cannot rule over the dead, but rather, only the living. And your death with Christ on the cross broke the claim of the Law had to oversee your life. Having now been freed from the jurisdiction of the Law, you are now free to be “joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead,” (7:4) and are now free to live as one who has now been united to Him.

It is very crucial to understand these things. For though the Law of God is holy, righteous, and good (7:12), you in your sinful flesh are everything but good. You are carnal and stink of hell. Thus, because of your carnality, when you become aware of the demands of God’s holy Law, you rebel against God and sin. The Law says, “you shall not covet,” but your sinful flesh, because of its rebellious nature, feels provoked to do the very opposite of what God says to do.(7:7-13) Such can be likened unto a mother telling her child to not press a red button. The mothers’ command is good, but everything within that child screams at him to press the red button. Why? Because that is what children do! And Paul’s argument thus far is that we are all like such children!

Thus, for those who live a life under the jurisdiction of the Law, we see a great struggle between God’s Law and our sinful flesh. If we read Romans 7:14-23 in its proper context, we will see that Paul is describing the conflicting life of a man living under the jurisdiction of the Law, and the ultimate bondage Law based living brings. On one hand, you have the Law of God telling you the good thing God wants you to do, and you mentally agree it should be done. But on the other hand, you have your sinful flesh disagreeing with the Law of God. Your sinful flesh is telling you to do the exact opposite of what God’s Law says, and ultimately drives you to do something other than what you want to do. In your sin, you may admit God was right in what He said in His Law, but such proved to be worthless to you, for instead of producing “fruit for God,” (7:4) you sinned and produced “fruit for death.” (7:5)

Reading of this great struggle and conflict, it is no wonder Paul throws his hands up in the air and declares: “Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” (7:24) Can you hear that? This great despair and anguish of heart that Paul expresses over his own humanity is ultimately what God desires to bring every man to see of himself. God wants us to understand that in and of ourselves, we are without hope, as our condition has trapped us in a vicious cycle that we have entered into, and have no hope of ever escaping from. God says don’t sin, yet we sin, and sin all the more! We find that we have a will and desire to serve God, but that our will is ultimately broken and unable to do what we know to be right. We find in this cycle, all we can do is continue in our addiction to sin.

Paul recognized that he had the need to be delivered from this way of living. In this way of life, he realizes there is a futility to living a life based on the Law of God. As great as the Law of God is, Paul found it had the inability to produce victory over sin in his life. Instead, the Law of God brought out the worst of his fallen humanity, and indwelling sin began to dominate him. (7:8) Instead of the Law giving him life and provoking him to obedience, he realized the commandment only provoked him to sin. The problem is not with the good commandment, but the problem is with the wickedness of our flesh. Thus Paul realized our only hope is to be found in Christ, who alone can set us free from this vicious cycle (Romans 7:25). The way in which Christ liberates us from this cycle, is not only to cause us to die to our sin, as we read about in Romans 6, but through Him we are made to die to the jurisdiction of the Law in our lives. And instead of living our lives based on the Law of God, having died with Christ and having been raised from the dead, we can find victory in our lives over sin if only we would walk in “the newness of the Spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” (7:6)

Without being set free from the Law, you and I could never truly be set free from the power of sin, and the deadly effect it has on our lives. Indeed, many Christians today fail to live the lives God would have them to live, because they are still living their life as if it were subjected to the jurisdiction of the Law. They wake up every morning and say, “I will do this, that, and the other… Likewise I will not do this, that, and the other.” They are living by rules and regulations. Some of those rules and regulations are man-made. But some of them even have their origin in God! But, God has never intended man to live his life in such a manner.

Some of you might be asking at this point, “Jimmy, I’m confused, are you saying that I don’t have to keep the commandments of God? Where does personal obedience come into play? We are supposed to obey God, right?” And this is a great question, to which I’d answer yes, we as Christians are to keep the Law of God, though we are set free from its jurisdiction. But by keeping it, I don’t mean waking up every day with a mental check list of things you are going to do or not do. As Christians, our keeping of the Law isn’t found in striving to obey individual commandments and precepts, rather, our keeping of the Law is something that originates out of experiencing a regenerated heart that has been set free by the Spirit to love God, and to walk accordingly.

It’s about living a life not empowered by a checklist of commandments, but rather, it’s about living a life empowered by the indwelling Spirit. I love God and love my neighbor as myself, not because I’m resolving to do so with all of my mind, to obey the Law. Rather, I do such as simply living my life by the impulse of the Spirit. Obedience therefore, simply comes naturally, or rather I should say, supernaturally in my life. As the Spirit of God moves in my life, I follow Him and His Divine impulse. If I rely on the Law of God to serve as my stimulant, I will find that I act upon the impulse of the flesh, and in doing so, will only find my flesh provoked to rebel against God, and to live a life of sin.

Therefore, the reason many believers continue to walk in bondage to sin, and carry around with them that one nagging vice they never seem to master, is ultimately because they are living their lives as if it were under the jurisdiction of the Law. So long as you do such, your Christian walk will be a very frustrating one, and will resemble the man of Romans 7:14-23. You will resolve and will to do what you know God wants you to do, but you will fail every time, because of a broken will, the weakness of the flesh, and the weakness of the Law. If you wish to overcome the sin in your life, you must consider yourself as one who not only has died to sin, but as one who has also died to the Law of God. And instead of walking according to your flesh, and walking according to the Law, you must walk according to the life giving power of the Holy Spirit.
...


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/1/11 11:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
by jochbaptist on 2012/1/11 6:41:29

DEAR pilgrim777

QUOTE-
This is probably the clearest and most understandable article I have read on the Law of God. This article should liberate the confused. by James Fowler.
END QUOTE-

SWEET!

THANKS FOR POSTING THIS.



Wow! That was a great article! Thank you.

 2012/1/11 11:11





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