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a-servant
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Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

4 x "No" in answer to your questions. However it is generally assumed we all walk in and by the same spirit.

This would be correct, at least in theory, if we would accept the authority of The Spirit, and therefore also scriptures over our own opinions. What is not the case as it appears, some value their opinions at least as high, if not higher.

What then makes obedience to God look like "legalism" to them, and nobody will convince them otherwise. This could several reasons, yesterday I read a book by Watchman Nee, titled Spiritual Authority, getting to the bottom of it:

"A man who is rebellious in heart will soon utter rebellious words, for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. To know authority, one must first meet authority; otherwise he will never obey. The mere hearing of the message of obedience is totally ineffective. He must have an encounter with God; then the foundation of God’s authority will be laid in his life. Afterwards, whenever he says a rebellious word—nay, even before he utters it—he will become conscious of his trespass and thus be inwardly restrained. If one can freely speak rebellious words without any inward sense of restraint, he certainly has never met authority. It is much easier to utter rebellious words than to perform rebellious acts."

That seems to be the dividing factor here " To know authority, one must first meet authority; otherwise he will never obey."

 2012/1/11 4:53Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

Annie,

I agree....

Lord have mercy!

Sandra aka ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2012/1/11 6:27Profile
jochbaptist
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Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 297


 Re:

Hi

I highly recommend anyone who wrestles with this issue to listen to Derek Prince's teaching on this.

What I realy appreciate about him is his gentle dealing/tone on this sensitive issue -(due to the abbuse women had to endure under illegitimate authority)

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=10717

Blessings

Joch


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J Kruger

 2012/1/11 7:28Profile
jochbaptist
Member



Joined: 2010/11/24
Posts: 297


 Re:

You said -

Women represent The Church and men represent Christ - The Husband of The Bride - and that's how true "submission" is taught in The Word.

That is incorrect. it should be..

Wives represent The Church and husbands represent Christ - The Husband of The Bride - and that's how true "submission" in the context of marriage is taught in The Word.

Joch


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J Kruger

 2012/1/11 7:31Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
I've only taken out a small section, Diane, of much that you've written on this topic that I do not agree with, according to His Word.

Jesus-is-God, do be careful to avoid reading your generalized conviction into my words. If you read carefully, you will see that I disagree no less than you do in the issue of gender language in hymns. I am simply presenting one popular means that people deal with a legitimate societal concern. My aim was to draw attention to the underlying concern – not to the erroneous ways of overcoming it. I’m sure you can empathize with the pain, anger, rejection, and sinful bondage lurking underneath all the superficial behaviors – as futile and masked as they may be. I’m sure you would agree that focusing on the heart troubles is far more apt to center us on the hope in Christ, then all the squabbles over gender terminologies in hymns. What do you think?



Quote:
No. Men are to love and honor their wives, wives are to submit to their husbands. Please do not mismatch the two.



Interestingly, the command is not gender specific: “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” Eph.5:21 Please hear me out! In the subsequent verse the word “submit” is not present in the Greek, but is implied by context, rightfully so. Paul is going on to explain how submission works in various household relationships. Really this is just another way of explaining the great commandment - practiced WITHIN the social order: We must keep in mind that in each scenario, there is a significant power differential, and Paul does not change that! Yet only the person who is born from above (the Spirit) can submit in Christian love within the contexts of their social order (REGARDLESS of their status). The slave can love his master; the master can love his slave in Christian submission. This is not a rejection of social order!!!! Jesus used the example of footwashing. This never made Jesus less than God! Likewise in Christian submission we stoop down as far as we can go – and serve another as a slave. We can do so because we know we are heirs of the King of kings! Even death won’t change who we are in Christ! Social status or advantage need no longer determine the fulfillment of God's calling on us.

Surely we would agree that in our human relationships both passivity and domineering weaken the Body of Christ and our effectiveness in the world. It is the devil's scheme. (Eph. 6:10)

Since Paul does not advocate a change of status or power in relationships, we shouldn't build a strawman from this scripture by implanting our modern understanding of political correctness or equality of status or gender. That may indeed be society’s attempt to achieve more tolerance and mutual respect; but it is unsuccessful because it lacks the power of the Spirit – and thus the ability to submit in Christian love. And so it becomes intensely legalistic: the letter rules over the spirit of those “rules”.

The challenge then for you and me is: How can I express Christian submission within the social order where I am placed in 2012 AD?

PS It is my conviction that where people are more concerned about power differentials than seeing Christ’s redemptive love outworked in relationship – they will tend to miss the forest for the trees (the spirit for the letters).

Oh… I just realized - we are crossing over to the thread on legalism. Oops! How is it that this happens so naturally when we talk about women’s roles?

Diane



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Diane

 2012/1/11 7:38Profile









 Re:


That is just it, if the man is not being the head of his household, how can we look after the Church properly. If the minister is not keeping his house, how can he keep the Church?

And if that be the case, how can we deal with women teachers?

First is to get our own house in order and then be able to stand against disorder in the Church.

For if we stand against disorder in the Church and we have a splinter of disorder in our own life and home, then has the enemy have reason to continue his menagerie ways in the Church.

As men here, this thread is just knowledge, it has no bearing until we take a stand and not be afraid to be men and not be afraid of our wives. Women generally want to be under their husbands. They are not because of many factors but mainly because his love is either not on her or he has caused her to be the man of the house because he is not being responsible.

That must change.

 2012/1/11 8:32
pilgrim777
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Joined: 2011/9/30
Posts: 1211


 Re:

Jesus-is-God says

Quote:
Does The Word of GOD [made flesh] change The Word of GOD [written] and change His Own doctrines by doing so?

Is that something that seems to some to be what GOD would do?

Is that "being led by The Spirit of Truth", as He's called?

That question has been heavy on me and I ask for reasons of the heart. Would He tell us to not go beyond what is written and then tell us by His Spirit to ignore His original Words?



Where does that phrase come from, "going beyond what is written"?

The reason I ask is because it has become a mantra like "separation of church and state".

If you hold tightly to "beyond what is written" then you will have to admit that Jesus went beyond what is written. What do you do with that?

I hope you are understanding that this whole discussion on the letter and the Spirit touches on your questions.

When you obey the spirit of the letter in many cases you are "going beyond what is written" in black ink on white paper. (according to the strict, legalistic literalists)

The Pharisees demonstrated this tightly held and legalistically observed notion, also.

It's not that He is telling us to "ignore His original words", but that He is breathing life and spiritual meaning into those words so that we understand by the Spirit (not our reason and logic) what He is saying to us.

This is so critical to understand. It is the spirit of grace that breathes His life into the words on paper.

The Pharisees were 100% literalists.

There are many examples of Jesus and the disciples "going beyond" and raising the ire of the Literalists. But, they obeyed the Spirit of the Word. If you don't come to Jesus the Living Word like the Pharisees then you won't have the Spirit to give life to the written word.

The devil can quote Scripture with a literalistic interpretation, as he so often does within religion. The literalist in religion wants to put everyone else into their own spiritual bondage. They want some company.

Some examples:

Jesus explained that He could attest to His authority to thus refine and purify. "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," He said. The Jewish religionists, in their literalistic obtuseness and always concerned with physicality rather than spiritual things, could not figure out how their magnificent Herodian temple, which required forty-six years to construct, could be raised up from destruction in just three days.

Jesus tells Nicodemus that the spiritual kingdom requires a spiritual birth in order to enter into the participation thereof. Nicodemus naturally reverts to physical thinking of human obstetrics and returning into his mother's womb. Like a typical religionist, he thinks in literalistic concepts, failing to understand spiritual metaphors of illustrative language. Jesus contrasts physical birth and spiritual birth, being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit. Religious interpretations which take the reference to being "born of water" as a reference to the rite of water baptism are employing the same type of physical and material understanding evidenced in Nicodemus, and usually view such a baptismal rite as initiation into their "kingdom" of ecclesiastical institution and organization.

"One of the dangers from which the Church should pray to be delivered is idolatry of the letter of Scripture. The letter exists for the spirit, not the spirit for the letter. Literalism is the grave in which spiritual religion is buried. The New Testament is a book which is to be spiritually interpreted. It has no greater enemy than the thorough-going literalist who would fetter its free thought by confining it within obsolete forms. It has no greater friend than the teacher who can give to its time-worn metaphors freshness and power by translating them into the language of the present." (James M. Campbell - The Heart of the Gospel: A Popular Exposition of the Doctrine of the Atonement. Fleming H. Revell Co. 1907. pg. 19)

Pilgrim

 2012/1/11 10:39Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
Surely we would agree that in our human relationships both passivity and domineering weaken the Body of Christ and our effectiveness in the world. It is the devil's scheme. (Eph. 6:10)




Hey Roadsign,

If I am reading this correctly, you are stating that what begins to happen in a "ordered" home via scripture creates either a passivity or domineering relationship between the man or women.

Is this the issue? Is it because some feel that if one is placed in a different role, headship vs. non-headship, that it becomes an issue of the headship being domineering over the other?

Would we not say that if a husband is domineering over the wife, that he would be out of a Godly order? I would say that he would be.

This is why I referenced that when a husband and wife embrace their godly role inside the family, they both will put the other first, with the husband honoring and loving his wife, and the wife submitting to the leadership of the husband.

There is nothing legalistic about submitting to the Lord's order. Nothing at all.


_________________
Christiaan

 2012/1/11 10:48Profile









 Re:

Hi Diane, First I'd like to say that I don't see this as a war but of a conversation merely based upon concern.
I woke this morning feeling that love for all here that I feel when I think of His Church and desired to get back on here asap based upon that one emotion.

Quote:
do be careful to avoid reading your generalized conviction into my words. If you read carefully, you will see that I disagree no less than you do in the issue of gender language in hymns.



I didn't feel I had generalized this quote that I was responding to ....

Quote:
: "– and even removing all male gender terminologies for God in the hymns. These churches don’t want to further alienate females from God who have been wounded by men and see God as just another of these kind of men. Let’s not mock the heart of this concern – even as we disagree with the solution. (which, again is highly legalistic - to me)"



Your next quote and reply was to Miccah but I'd like to speak to just a little of what comes toward the end of your reply.

Quote:
Interestingly, the command is not gender specific: “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ” Eph.5:21 Please hear me out!



Yes, I've heard this same argument for 34 yrs which originated back then from the hyper-faith women in our Church [AoG church] But that is a faulty interpretation or use of that one verse. From Eph 5:1-20, Paul is speaking to the entire Church regarding behavioral instructions and the submitting there goes with the verses that preceded vs 20 - but then Paul switches in vs 21 to the subject of husbands and wives only - and they being representive of Christ and His Church.

Quote:
Surely we would agree that in our human relationships both passivity and domineering weaken the Body of Christ and our effectiveness in the world. It is the devil's scheme. (Eph. 6:10)



Our "power and authority" are from being alligned with The WORD - as those verses John 16:13,14 will prove out. The Spirit of Truth only backs The Word of GOD. If someone is out of order with the written Word of GOD, they should not expect a 'genuine' power at all and the authority would be counterfeit.

In line with this, I answer Pilgrim's question of where do we find the instruction to not go beyond what is written - and to that I answer that - I used the word "doctrine" in that post specifically. Doctrine is set and we would be saying that The Spirit of Truth changes what is written if we say that doctrine changes 'with the times', so to speak.
Of course He leads us to jobs and we surely do need to be led by His Spirit moment by moment with child-like dependence on Him for All things - but HE will never change the doctrines of The written Word of GOD.

And back to where our "power and authority" comes from - it doesn't come from us, it comes from our revenence for The Word of GOD because that is what The Spirit of Truth exalts and backs up.
If The LORD through the Spirit puts a Word into our hearts and we deliver it - though we may be as timid or meek as can be - the Power and Authority comes from The Word delivered and not from us - ever.
A child could speak a Word given by His Spirit and the Church would fall on their knees.
That is the power and authority - not us.
He gives us power & authority 'when' we are lined up with what The Spirit of Truth is giving us at that moment.

The other use of the word "authority" that we are speaking of on this thread is GOD's order between the genders. The same order set up since the fall in Eden.

The question truly is, do we throw these verses out?
1Ti 2:12-14 And I do not allow a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived has come to be in transgression

Regardless of our "psychological" condition, we don't alter Scripture [or hymnals] thus changing The Word of GOD for these psychological reasons that you gave - because only The Truth will set any 'injured or hurting' persons free and not by going beyond or against what is written.
His Word is forever settled in Heaven, the Psalm says, and I fear that we are calling that thought 'legalism' of late.

We need to Love The Word of GOD more than we love ourselves and even more than we love others --- more than our own flesh and blood - more than our own husbands or fathers.
If we love The Word of GOD in that way, we'll not go against it and will guard it with our life and not care what anyone thinks of us if we do and will have the backing of power and authority from His Spirit of Truth.
We'd see the power of the early Church when we get back to that reverence of The Word of GOD because 'that' is what the office of The Spirit of Truth is, according to those verses in John.

He, The Spirit, will only honor that which does not contradict what Jesus said originally in what we call our New Testaments.


His Love to all.






 2012/1/11 11:49
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3403
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus-is-God wrote:
The question I have is, how can 'The Spirit lead' anyone to believe something that The Word of GOD hasn't said or that contradicts what it says, regarding doctrine, if The Word of GOD is the One we know as 'Jesus'?


JiG, please note that it’s not that I do not believe what the Scripture says, I just don’t interpret it the way that YOU interpret the scriptures; which is where it seems most of the disagreement is to be found.

Onto another question: You’ve not answered this question yet since I’ve posted it twice... How did God lead His people in the 1400 to 1600 years before the printing press without everyone having The Word of God in their possession to compare it to?

God bless you,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2012/1/11 12:47Profile





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