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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
This was intended to provoke, but not Jeff especially!



That comment put a smile on my face.

I believe the word "grace" defines the supernatural work of God in men. I agree that the grace dispensed by God on man differs according to the work God has planned for each individual. Yet, the outcome of the grace always manifests itself in man to enable each individual to first, Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us.

We love Him because He first loved us. Faith is the product of the grace realized by the individual. Thus it is the work of Christ to produce the faith in man which enables him to love the Father just as the Son does.

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work to reconcile fallen man to Himself. Those who obey receive the "faith of Jesus."

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/20 14:19Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Robert wrote:

Quote:
Time is too short to delve as deeply as we could- yet for some, teaching too deeply opens the door for the enemy cause babes in Christ to rest on things hard to be understood and rattle their faith.



In the book, "The Heavenly Man," Brother Yun identified this characteristic of the western church.

I do not have the book infront of me so I will have to paraphrase his point according to memory.

He basically said, "When western preachers come to speak at the house churches, we experience difficulty in our church. Most western preachers can only speak for 45 minutes. Our brethren are willing to listen for hours."

What kind of forum will allow us to teach the deeper things of God?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/20 14:27Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The kind of faith referred to as 'Abraham's faith' is the kind that enabled God to credit Abraham with righteousness; this was and is 'justifying faith'. 'Son's faith' is of a different order.



This would be a good time to define these differences:

1) Abrahamic Faith:

?

2) Son's Faith:

?


Perhaps there is a brief statement for each.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/20 14:38Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
[i]Jeff posted:[/i]I believe the word "grace" defines the supernatural work of God in men. I agree that the grace dispensed by God on man differs according to the work God has planned for each individual. Yet, the outcome of the grace always manifests itself in man to enable each individual to first, Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us.


Doesn't this undermine your own position?
[b]And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Luk 7:50 KJV)
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luk 18:42 KJV)[/b]
In each of these instances the 'believer' received a different kind of 'salvation'. It is the different foci of faith which I am trying to point out.

[b]The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (Act 14:9 KJV)[/b] In fact the word 'healed' here is actually 'saved'. Paul, however, recognised what I am calling a 'different kind of faith' here; faith to be healed/saved.


In these instances the grace of God did not [i]enable each individual to first, Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us.[/i] It simply enabled them to believe that God was able to heal them at that particular time. I have seen more that one person who was able to believe and receive healing who never went on to [i]Love God with all our heart, mind, and strength, and secondly to love one another as He has loved us.[/i]


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/20 14:43Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
What kind of forum will allow us to teach the deeper things of God?



Well, for me I would have to have a firm grasp on the topic and be comfortable that it would in fact edify. I do agree that the time constraints are horrible. I can speak for long periods of time and am often critized or 'teased' for that. In my circles an entire service may last 1.5 hours to 2.5 hours tops. The sermon is rarely over 45 minutes. The class I teach is about 45 minutes long. In reality it demonstrates the need for revival. As they saying goes, "In revival... time does not exist." We need revival.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/20 14:45Profile
RobertW
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Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, (Act 14:9 KJV) In fact the word 'healed' here is actually 'saved'. Paul, however, recognised what I am calling a 'different kind of faith' here; faith to be healed/saved.



This is very important to point out due to the finality of supposing all faith was the same faith. If we follow through believing all faith is the same we would have to conclude that if a person does not have enough faith to be 'healed' of a sickness- they don't have enough faith to be saved from sin.

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2005/1/20 14:48Profile
rookie
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Posts: 4794


 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
This is very important to point out due to the finality of supposing all faith was the same faith.



I agree, faith differs according to the individual. For each individual differs from another. The manifestation of sin is each individual differs, but the source is the same. Likewise, grace finds is source in God. Faith differs, but the source waters the seed.

Grace that is dispensed, in what constitutes signs and wonders, gives evidence to man that the "I AM" exists. To know that He exist is the door by which many enter into a relationship with Him. One still has a free choice to walk through that door. God's grace is always dispensed so that man may glorify Him.

Brother Ron, would you concur that the nature of healing spoken of in the following verse also pretains to God saving His people?

2Chr. 30:20 And the LORD listened to Hezekiah and healed the people.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/20 15:23Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
I guess before we can answer why we doubted we must first understand the nature of our error. It seems that the root for doubt in the Greek means twice or two. That leads me to "doublemindedness." I have looked at this before and it meant "two-spirited." I think more excellently it would be one who halts between two opinions. They cannot or will not rightly weigh the evidence, therefor they cannot judge rightly as to whether to believe or not. I see this as a process in some cases of thinking through the ramifications of certain revealed truths (if they are true).



Earlier in the thread you spoke of an understanding of the progression of the growth of faith in an individual. You spoke of justification, then regeneration. And then you said that you probably would not teach this.

If God has revealed His truth to you as His shepherd, should you not feed His sheep.

Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

Rom. 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

Faith changes as He reveals Himself to us. If God has revealed the truth to you, then in faith you must feed His sheep. Lack of understanding is the product of unbelief.

God Bless
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/20 15:46Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Another thought:

Did not the faith of Abraham grow from faith to faith because of God's grace? God called Abraham His friend. Likewise Jesus called His disciples His friends.

John 15:

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

Did not God say in Scripture of Abraham, Gen. 18:

17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.”

Also:

James 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.

Can the nature of what God calls friendship change?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2005/1/20 16:51Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Brother Ron, would you concur that the nature of healing spoken of in the following verse also pretains to God saving His people?

2Chr. 30:20 And the LORD listened to Hezekiah and healed the people.


From the context I would have said that this is not a reference to physical healing at all, but to God restoring the people to spiritual health.

2Ch_30:20
God heard this intercession, and healed the people. רפא, sanare, is not to be explained by supposing, with Bertheau, that first sickness, and then even death, were to be expected as the results of transgression of the law, according to Lev_15:31, and that the people might be already regarded as sick, as being on the point of becoming so. The use of the word is explained by the fact that sin was regarded as a spiritual disease, so that רפא is to be understood of healing the soul (as Psa_41:5), or the transgression (Hos_14:5; Jer_3:22).
Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
Johann (C.F.) Keil (1807-1888) & Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890)


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Ron Bailey

 2005/1/20 17:54Profile





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