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dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re: roadsign

Dear Sister,

A pleasure to "meet" you Ma'am. :O)

Quote:
"Furthermore... It would seem to me that to suggest a book in Scripture is written by a hardened hell-bound sinner would be making a fool out of the Holy Spirit, as well as those who formed the canon!!"

How does one prove that Ecclesiastes was written by King Solomon? It may very well have been, but if this can't be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, than what of the arguments you have put forth?

It may be that Solomon repented before death, (as Ezekiel 18 shows us is necessary with God), but if we can't even prove that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, than we cannot use this book to "prove" that he did repent, can we? Do you see what I mean dear Sister?

I wish you well in the Lord.
Doug

 2011/12/9 12:02Profile
hulsey
Moderator



Joined: 2006/7/5
Posts: 640
Missouri

 Re:

It's important to keep in mind that Godly men throughout history are split on this. Brother Poonen does not stand alone on this interpretation.

Also consider that God spoke one of the greatest prophecies about the Messiah through the mouth of the pagan prophet Balaam.

Blessings,
Jeremy


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SI Moderator - Jeremy Hulsey

 2011/12/9 12:16Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
Is what you wrote all your own words?



Yes, sister.

Quote:
but if we can't even prove that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon, than we cannot use this book to "prove" that he did repent, can we?



Yes Doug, I realize that authorship is not conclusive according to biblical criticism. Yet no reasonable alternative exists - yet. I think the following footnote from the NET Bible site, speaks for the current situation regarding authorship:
------
“Apart from David, only Solomon was “king over Israel in Jerusalem” – unless the term “Israel” (yisra’el) in 1:12 is used for Judah or the postexilic community. Solomon would fit the description of the author of this book, who is characterized by great wisdom (1:13, 16), great wealth (2:8), numerous servants (2:7), great projects (2:4-6), and the collection, editing and writings of many proverbs (12:9-10). All of this generally suggests Solomonic authorship. However, many scholars deny Solomonic authorship on the basis of linguistic and historical arguments.”
------

Now, I realize that my following point holds absolutely no water in scholarship, but here it is: Many years ago after studying the account of Solomon, I became deeply burdened about the outcome of his life – and so I simply asked God to show me. I am still convinced that the Spirit brought Ecclesiastes into my mind, and put the whole idea of him being a returned prodigal. I doubt that back then I would have even entertained the possibility, because that’s just not what anyone talked about or where my mind was at. Still to this day after much more bible studying, nothing has given me reason for a need to question the authorship. The skeptics just don't have a strong case.

By accepting Solomnic authorship, we lose nothing. We actually strengthen the unity of scripture on many points – including the two testaments. Conversely, by remaining non-committal – the loss is substantial, I fear. Ecclesiastes gets marginalized in the church, and disconnected from Solomon and his life.... and next thing you know – Solomon is in hell! It’s a slippery path – and not worth the risk IMHO.

Wouldn’t you say?

Diane


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Diane

 2011/12/9 13:29Profile
dietolive
Member



Joined: 2007/6/29
Posts: 342


 Re:

Dear Sister Diane,

You have well-written, and I am inclined to agree with your supposition. However, please consider my thoughts, if you will.

Quote:
“I realize that authorship is not conclusive according to biblical criticism.”

Not according to biblical “criticism” per se, but rather according to the writer of Ecclesiastes. The writer does not name himself. Therefore, we cannot absolutely say it was Solomon.

For instance, I believe Hebrews was written by Paul, but beyond a male pronoun used in one place, we cannot know for certain who wrote it.

Quote:
“By accepting Solomnic authorship, we lose nothing.”

I accept Solomnic authorship, probably, but since I cannot be certain, I am barred from using this “probably fact” to prove another “absolute fact.” I couldn’t do so logically. Do you see what I am saying Ma’am?

Quote:
“We actually strengthen the unity of scripture on many points – including the two testaments. Conversely, by remaining non-committal – the loss is substantial, I fear. Ecclesiastes gets marginalized, disconnected from Solomon and his life.... and next thing you know – Solomon is in hell! It’s a slippery path – and not worth the risk IMHO.”

I am not sure what you mean here. Are you looking for a particular outcome, (“isogesis”?) Or are you willing to accept the Scriptures at face value, (“exegesis”?)

I myself have to accept the Scriptures where it shows that Solomon backslid, and though I think he repented, I cannot prove this from Scripture. Whatever happened to him however, his amazing rise and devastating fall is a powerful reminder for us all to take God and His Word very seriously. In other words, God is glorified if we look at it either way.

I recall what the apostle Paul said when he warned the Church not to follow those who sinned in the Old Testament:

“Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted....

Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them...

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed...

Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted...

Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured...

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition[warning], upon whom the ends of the world are come.”
I Corinthians 10:6-11

Just my thought regarding this. I am not saying it must be one way or the other.

Be well ma'am,
Doug

 2011/12/9 14:04Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Old-joe

Please, if you have inspiration on this from Heb 11:39, in how these Old Testament saints?, I would appreciate your view, "How are they made perfect" in Christ:'?

Lot-saved
Samson-saved
Solomon-saved
Jonathan-saved
Uzziah-saved
Jacob-saved
Barak-saved
Ruth-saved


How were these made perfect? Not just, "by faith", which I understand, but how and when Christ was made perfect in them.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/12/9 15:26Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Hello Doug. I value your gracious reply – and I will do my best in response.

Quote:
I am barred from using this “probably fact” to prove another “absolute fact.” I couldn’t do so logically. Do you see what I am saying Ma’am?



Oh yes brother. In other words, we defend our “absolutes” from our preferred “probabilities”. This sounds like the backdrop for many disputes regarding scripture – even among the experts. Who am I to provide any logical conclusion in this particular matter? I do note that Mathew and Mark offer no author name; yet we accept their authorship based on criteria from the early church. Certainly, here we are comfortable with accepting a “probability” as fact (although this is even being questioned).

Quote:
The writer does not name himself. Therefore, we cannot absolutely say it was Solomon.


Yet, in Ecclesiastes there seems to be a substantial quantity of “absolutes” regarding the author - in comparison with Hebrews which offers almost none. Regarding the use of a name as conclusive evidence - even here scholars are questioning Ephesian authorship based on assorted criteria, in spite of Paul’s name throughout. I have the same problem here as with Ecclesiastes because, here again, when the author gets severed off, the teachings lose potential weight. (For me it makes a difference when a teaching is backed by a real person’s life story – someone you can learn more about in other parts of scripture – as Solomon and Paul)

A side note: Poonen (and others) argue that the absence of recorded repentance proves Solomon guilty. By the same token there is an intriguing absence of judgment against Solomon in the New Testament. The NT uses other examples: Sodom, the wandering Israelites (They did not enter God’s rest). Here Solomon should have been the ideal model!

Quote:
In other words, God is glorified if we look at it either way.


I may very well arrive at this conclusion some day. For now I’m not there. Maybe there’s bit of Calvinism in me: God is able to save his own – no matter how deeply they fall – and Solomon is prime an example of the power of God’s mercy. Certainly Solomon reveals plenty of evidence of belonging to God – and being endowed with the Spirit. (That’s surely proof for a Calvinist!)

True, Solomon’s failings alone, can serve as a caution, along with the scriptures you posted.
Yet Ecclesiastes gets at the root of those sins: the search for meaning apart from God. Today our society is reeling because of this same insatiable search for meaning and significance. This is driving so many of our youth into destructive life habits – in spite of the insurmountable evidence of the tragic outcomes. In view of this crisis among our youth today, I find myself extremely protective of this potential Biblical application: Solomon and his hope offered for youth. It’s not just a warning to stop doing bad, but the remedy for that driving thirst: God himself.

The thin thread of probability, for me is outbalanced by a multi-stringed cord of absolutes drawn together from a very wide radius.

Diane


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Diane

 2011/12/9 17:51Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

The Preacher says he was the son of David, King over Israel, the wisest man in all Jerusalem, the richest, and wrote some 3000 proverbs. Checking Proverbs Soloman is the primary writer with others sprinkled in.

That is good enough for me, as with Paul in Hebrews, who had the highest education in all the land and always in his comission to preach what Christ Himself revealed to him of all his epistles, preaching Christ and Him Crucified and his position 146 times, that position being in Christ, and Christ in him.

To me truth; revealed by the Holy Spirit and conformation in my mind. Not from man.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2011/12/9 18:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Please, if you have inspiration on this from Heb 11:39, in how these Old Testament saints?, I would appreciate your view, "How are they made perfect" in Christ:'?



Have you received the promise of Christ's second coming? Not yet, but even though we haven't actually received the promise of the second coming it doesn't keep us from trusting in the fact that it is coming does it? The OT saints all looked FORWARD to the coming Messiah, whereas we look backward at it. Neither of us have actually seen the day, but both of us actually look to the same work accomplished on the cross as our justification before God. They were made perfect through the righteousness of faith (Rom 4) the same way the Christian is today.

The righteousness ZP and others are preaching is NOT the righteousness of faith, but their own righteousness of Rom 10:3-4, which never makes one perfect before God.

OJ

 2011/12/9 23:49
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1986


 Re: basic math


OJ,

You said,

1) "Poonen is a false teacher who bases his salvation on his 'fruit' rather than on the promise of God."

And you also said,

+1) "The righteousness ZP and others are preaching is NOT the righteousness of faith, but their own righteousness of Rom 10:3-4, which never makes one perfect before God."

To sum it up you said,

=2) "I will willingly go where Solomon is, but I want no part of where Poonen is going.

I know 1+1=2

Tell me,is my math wrong when I add up your quotes 1+1 to = Zac Poonen is going to hell!

Because I know that "false teacher[s]" as you call ZP, and those who are preaching a righteousness that is "NOT the righteousness of faith" as you accuse ZP of, are hell-bound!



 2011/12/10 0:31Profile
savannah
Member



Joined: 2008/10/30
Posts: 1986


 Re:


Post Removed by poster

 2011/12/10 0:58Profile





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