SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Beauty of EXTERNAL righteousness

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread









 Re:

Rbanks, you write..........

"If the Apostle Paul could say that if one is circumcised as a reason in trying to keep the Law in order to be accepted by God has fallen from grace, and also, at another time tell Timothy to be circumcised in order to minister the gospel to certain people so that they would be able to receive him. Why on earth would we want to put people in bondage to do something that turns the mainstream of the people we are trying to reach and minster to away from receiving us and the message of life and hope that so many desperately need."

This was the very point I was sharing with a dear brother down in Oklahoma as we discussed these threads and that issue. No one could have been more clear than Paul about circumcision, what it was and what it was not, yet because Timothy's father was a Greek and therfore he was not circumsised, Paul, in order not to cause a needless offence and a stumbling block, took Timothy and had him circumsised. If I went to China and the culture dictated that I take off my shoes before I entered someone's house, God forbid that I would be so proud as to refuse and cause a needless offence. Similiarly if they had such a custom before entering their churches, again off would come the shoes.


"I thank God that the leadership of TSC in New York and other godly ministries have enough wisdom and love for the lost and the church not to turn people off with a custom that is not conducive for the area they are ministering the gospel in."

I thank God too for that ministry brother and their wisdom and their love for the lost..........brother Frank

 2011/10/9 17:11
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: The Beauty of EXTERNAL righteousness

In reading through the flow of thought in this thread, it seems as if the intention of the original post has been totally misunderstood. The original post offered the following:

We must “put on” the Lord Jesus Christ and clothe ourselves with every grace of His life. Let us put on lowliness . . . meekness . . . kindness . . . love . . . mercy and forgiveness . . . .

Do you see any mention of clothing there? Headcoverings? Pants or dresses or makeup or jewelry? I suppose the "external" aspect of the original post may bring us to discuss those topics at some point down the road. But it seems that the intent of the *original* post was not to get stuck on any of those things. What is the theme sentence? It was to "put on" the Lord Jesus Christ. How can such a statement devolve into contradictions and claims of Phariseeism or legalism and such?

The original post basically said when Christ is truly inward he will show himself outwardly. In works, in appearance, in manner, and so forth. This is both a true and a beautiful statement. Let us embrace it and take the encouragement of the original article. I, for one, wish to say I appreciate it. May we have more like it!

For those of you who find that any use of the word "external" conjures up all manner of thoughts on legalism and righteousness that is surface only, I sympathize with your bad experiences, but you would do this thread a service to put your grievances, reactions, and bitterness against those things in a thread that is really discussing them. I may be wrong, but I think the original post is discussing something else, something both very Biblical and necessary for us today.

 2011/10/9 23:14Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1032
Oregon

 Re:

If I may make a comment

Brother Greg said:

Quote" "Sanctification is not a second step or just a good thing to have it is the qualification that you are saved and going even further "it is your salvation". You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation, it is the outflow of your justification experience into everyday life. Thus we must not minimize it somehow. If we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb then we will be sanctified from this world in our mind, heart, life, dress, clothes, actions, use of money, etc."Quote

To which brother Frank replied:

Quote" Here brother, in my opinion, you have made a grave error. The process of sanctification is a life-times work. God takes broken lifes, and with great patience ( oh thank you Lord) He begins to put it back together, piece by piece. Why do you think a Christian has to be broken Greg? Broken from what? What do you think the refining process is brother? Refining from what? Why do you think every Christian reading this has dross in their lives that needs to be refined? Dont you realize by the statement you made that you have just challenged almost every Christian on this site that they are really not Christians? If, your statement is correct, and someone disagrees with the standard that you have put forward and have been putting forward for weeks now, they then must not be sanctified,
thereofore, they are not truly saved. I believe that many people who have answered the posts that you put forward got that you were trying to say that, they got it in their spirit, but now you have, it seems, been honest. Quote"


Here is my comment:
I think Brother Greg is refering to sanctification with regards to obedience which is not and should never be progressive while on the other hand brother Frank is refering to sanctification with regards to light which is a process that takes a lifetime.

In other words when God reveals His will to His child He expects immediate obedience according to what is revealed but He reveals His will progressively over time according to what each one can handle.

Winkie Pratney explains it best in His lecture " Be ye Holy"



_________________
Fifi

 2011/10/10 0:40Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37179
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Quote" "Sanctification is not a second step or just a good thing to have it is the qualification that you are saved and going even further "it is your salvation". You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation, it is the outflow of your justification experience into everyday life. Thus we must not minimize it somehow. If we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb then we will be sanctified from this world in our mind, heart, life, dress, clothes, actions, use of money, etc."Quote



Brother Frank and others,

I do feel there was a mis-interpretation of what I wrote. So let me try and clarify as best as I can in a short amount of space. Salvation from the Lord in justifying us by His blood sanctifies us. When we are first born-again we are justified and then also the process of sanctification begins. If sanctification is not there at all or starts to become apparent then one can doubt if the person was every justified. Sancitification cannot be had at once, it is not something you get at some point. It is as you were saying a continual process, this I do not disagree with.

But my entire point was a whole different aspect of looking at this. If a person is being progressively santified that santification will not be one of just an internal nature but will start to manifest itself outwardly. I actually cannot barely think of anything that we are sanctified in that will not lead to almost immediate ourward change.

Therefore outwards changes in a christians behaviour, dress, lifestyle, actions, and many other daily choices manifest the sanctification of the believer and ultimately the justification experience the believer had. The ways and desires of the world should not have a hold on or have place in the heart of the true heavenly pilgrim. The early church had different practices and customs then the gentiles around them. Christ continually taught for his disciples to live in a "markedly" different way then those around them. And if that santification that you have cannot touch any tangible area of dress, homes, cars, etc then you have a false santicification that is man-made or a person is decieved to think they can live anyway they please and still follow surrender to the Lord in every area of their life.

The Lord might have some give up things others will not have to. And many believers are in different areas of santification and growth in the Lord and casting off the cares and desires of this world. Thus we cannot impose strict rules on these areas but we must not disdain those who are following this way and truly are not happy to try and fit in with the styles and customs of this world.

"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you." - 1 John 2:15, James 4:4, John 15:19 (NIV)





_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2011/10/10 1:20Profile









 Re:

Hi brother Greg,

I would like to use two quotes from what you have written and then give an explanation as to sanctification and where I believe that you are in error, and that error has manifested itself in the last few weeks in particular. First you write..........

"You cannot seperate the two! Sanctification is salvation"

I believe, given everything that you have written and the nature of your posts that you believe this, we must accept a mans words. The second quote is this.........

"And if that sanctification that you have cannot touch any tangible area of dress, homes, cars, etc then you have a false santicification that is man-made or a person is decieved to think they can live anyway they please and still follow surrender to the Lord in every area of their life."

I find it revealing and interesting that to you, a tangible demonstration of the process of sanctification is " dress, homes, cars ect." Real quick example before I give my explanation of sanctification. Violent drug dealing murderer comes to Jesus. He is wonderfully saved. He is no longer violent, he is a man of peace. A complete 180 in his life to the glory of God the Father. He is in the process of sanctification and the remarkable outworkings of the Lord in his life is demonstrated in the fact that he is a new creature. He happens to be a man of some means and drives into your church parking lot with a Lexus. You see this man, and despite the fact that he has had the most incredible transformation from the inside out, you judge the man because of the car that he drives, or the suit that he wears ect. There is no joy in your heart that the Lord has delivered this man and that this man is a remarkable trophy of grace, there is only judgement for this man, and as one of your articles stated, he could not be used for God because he does not pass the money test. Now brother, I dont actually believe that you would do this or dismiss this man because of his outward appearance, but the teachings that you have put forward and your understanding of sanctification would lead someone that did not know you personally to believe this. And remember, the Pharisee could have cared less about the character and nature and sinlessnes of Jesus, they hated him and plotted to kill him because He broke with one of their traditions, at least in their minds, by healing on a Sabbath. They did not care about the man healed, the only cared and reasoned that since Jesus healed on the Sabbath, then he could not possibly be of God.

Okay, now for sanctification, and I will try and be brief, but I think you will find this explanation to be orthodox. First, the word sanctify basically means to be set apart, it has the same root as the words holy and saint. There are three aspects of sanctification. The first is called "positional or definitive sanctification." (right here is where I believe you are in error, if this is your only understanding of what it means to be sanctified) This position relates to every single genuine born again Christian. They enjoy this position by virtue of being set apart as a member of the family of God through faith in Jesus Christ. No matter what stage a Christian is at, this state is true for all ( weaker brothers, babes in Christ ect) In 1 Cor 1:2 and 6:11 Paul addresses a church that is acting very carnal but the verb indicates something that is accomplished, not something that is to be attained.

The second aspect of sanctification concerns the present experiential or progressive work of continuing to be set apart. Every command and exhortation to live a Holy life in the Scriptures falls into this category. 1 Pet 1:6

The third aspect of sanctification is typically referred to " ultimate sanctification," which is attained when this corruptible flesh is raised in incorruption, when we will be eternally set apart from sin, no longer to struggle with the law of sin that is in the flesh.

So brother Greg, if you mistakenly believe that there is only one aspect to sanctification, and believe that positional sanctification is the whole, then this would lead to error and a judgmental spirit. You would judge the man, or the woman, by their outward appearance. There would be no room for weaker brothers of babes in Christ or for the progressive path that they may be on, their would only be judgement that they have not attained what you may think yourself to have attained. Of course, in all of this, the greatest of all demonstrations of the sanctifying work of the Lord in a heart is the supernatural love that flows from them for our weaker brothers and for a dying world.

You can have everything else, but if you do not have this love then everything else is without worth. That is why the Scriptures say that you will know them by their love for one another. This is the key scriptural identifying mark of the born-again believer because the body of Christ is so diverse that only the Holy Spirit of the living God could bring them together and create such a love in their hearts. Let us keep in mind that this discussion is taking place between good brothers and sisters, not false professors or a lost evangelical world that lives any old way it pleases, that has been raised time and time again as a straw man in this discussion........brother Frank

Rom 14:1 And receive him who is weak in the faith, but not to judgments of your thoughts.
Rom 14:2 For indeed one believes to eat all things; but being weak, another eats vegetables.
Rom 14:3 Do not let him who eats despise him who does not eat; and do not let him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has received him.
Rom 14:4 Who are you that judges another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or also why do you despise your brother? For all shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

 2011/10/10 11:50
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 612
Texas

 Re-directing back to the Beauty of the external - more specific

Perhaps it is time to state clearly what the "orignial" poster of this thread had in mind by "externals"

First let me state that I did not have in mind the "externals" mentioned by many who blended other recent threads into this one.

The "BEATUTIFUL EXTERNALS" that I long to see in a visible outward manifestion are stated below:

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, PUT ON tender mercies, PUT ON kindness, PUT ON humility, PUT ON meekness, PUT ON longsuffering: PUT ON bearing with one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must DO.

"But above these things PUT ON love, which is the bond of perfection and let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..."

You see that Paul did not assume that these would be the natural outflow of the inward abiding of Christ. He chose instead to instruct the believers to take the action of PUTTING ON these very outward and visible graces that come from Christ within.

These are the external manifestations that beautify the teaching of Christ through our holy and blameless conduct before the eyes of the world. This is not to EARN salvation, but to GLORIFY it. THis is not to GAIN grace, but to become the PRAISE OF THE GLORIOUS GRACE.

Peter agreed with Paul in not treating the indwelling of Christ and participation in His divine nature as an automatic resonse that no longer needed specific direction.
He chose to urge believers to GIVE ALL DILIGENCE TO ADD TO YOUR FAITH - other BEAUTIFUL graces: the grace of VIRTUE. VIRTUE is one of the most beautiful testimonies before the eyes of the world. GODLINESS is another clearly visible indicator of the inner purity of the heart. PERSEVERANCE is another outward BEAUTY that proves the ability to endure must be coming from the excellency of the power of the God indwelling the earthen vessel.

BROTHERLY KINDNESS was another EXTERNAL BEAUTY clearly showing that the love of God was being shed abroad in the heart of the believer. The visible love between saints clearly MARKED them as disciples before the eyes of the world.

I encourage all who visit this forum to read the letters of the apostles and see if they ever took it for granted that the believers would just naturally do the "RIGHT" thing. They KNEW the SOURCE must come from within and still they consistently, persistently exhorted their fellow saints towards the full apprehension and demonstration of the righteousness of God in Christ, INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY.

YES! I am for EXTERNALLY BEAUTIFUL RIGHTEOUSNESS. I know where it comes from - but my concern if for those who do not know where it comes from. I WANT THEM TO SEE IT IN ME!

HAVE THINE OWN WAY LORD - HAVE THINE OWN WAY
HOLD O'RE MY BEING ABSOLUTE SWAY
FILL WITH THY SPIRIT - TILL ALL SHALL SEE
CHRIST ONLY ALWAYS LIVING IN ME


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2011/10/10 12:23Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

appolus, I do apologize but I am having a hard time following you. Let us take your example. A drug dealer gets saved and drives into your church parking lot. What do you do? The only right thing to do: you rejoice with the angels and praise God together. Now, the same drug dealer drives into your lot two years later in the Lexus. What do you do? It is time to weep. Either this brother has not seen the kingdom of heaven or the church he is going to is not a real one.

 2011/10/10 13:11Profile









 Re: Re-directing back to the Beauty of the external - more specific

Brother, you write......

"Perhaps it is time to state clearly what the "orignial" poster of this thread had in mind by "externals"


Did you not write this post as an answer to the the post "Self-righteousness and a focus on the outward appearance." Or as a follow up to the post " The end of Holiness," which was a follow on from the post on head-coverings. The subject has stayed the same in all of them and the pattern is the same. Some point out the danger of " focussing," on the outward appearance, meaning manner of clothes, money, houses and cars, and then some cry out " No, you must not ignore what a man looks like on the outside,' which, to my knowledge no has done so far, certainly not me, So, having daid that and with that context let me say that I agree with much of the points you have just raised..........

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, PUT ON tender mercies, PUT ON kindness, PUT ON humility, PUT ON meekness, PUT ON longsuffering: PUT ON bearing with one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must DO."

"but my concern if for those who do not know where it comes from. I WANT THEM TO SEE IT IN ME!"

Amen brother. May the world see the glories of our Lord in us with all holiness, tender mercies, kindness and humility with meekness. Longsuffering with our weaker brothers and babes in Christ is most definately a sign of one moving closer to the Lord with a heart that is quick to forgive and not hold on to old issues as a matter of bitterness. Alan, could you explain what you believe " put on,' means, since we agree that love is the most important issue, how would you explain to a younger brother what it means to " put on," love. I have mu own opinion of this, but would like to hear yours.........brother Frank


"But above these things PUT ON love, which is the bond of perfection and let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts..."


 2011/10/10 14:51
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 612
Texas

 Re:

Thank you for asking what I thought you had probably assumed. Believe me, I can see how the connection was easily made. As a fellowship we have been seeking to be full of grace so as to be as our Lord those from whom others can receive grace for grace.

I am more aware than ever before of how the Holy Spirit is living water flowing from within, the threshhold of the Lord's indwelling. This water alone makes alive, but this water also produces leaves and fruit for the nations.

I no longer want to know Christ if knowing Him has myself as the greatest recipient. He is for others, He came for others, and for His perfect will to be accomplished I too must come to the place where all His life is oozing out of this vessel in a living demonstration of righteous conduct, blameless and pure before the world.

The dress discussions only stimulated my own thoughts.

I just now saw your question. I will pray about how to express this. It is the core of what we are seeking to learn ourselves. It has to do with receiving by faith every facet of the very life of Christ which is perfectly designed to strengthen us in the areas we are the weakest. But I will let others help in this also. This would be a great topic for edification.

Thanks for the wonderful request

makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2011/10/10 15:00Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1067
Germany NRW

 Re: Re-directing back to the Beauty of the external - more specific

Thanks for clarifying this makrothumia,
very true, I admit I also misunderstood you to a degree.
As God works in my inside, I have to work on my outside, that means labor to which he enables me. It is up to me, if I lack it, I cannot blame God.

 2011/10/10 15:05Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy