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 Re:

Lord Jesus you say go bless and not curse my enemies. I do bless and forgive them. May yku bless and forgive them. I pray this in your name. Amen.

 2011/10/3 23:43
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

personally i hold the KJV translation in high regards, not mainly because it is the KJV but because from what source/string of manuscripts they are translated from.

The thing is there are two main sources for translations, because all english bibles are just this, translations, all have "problems" with thier translation, some more then others. Some are word for word translation, there the translators have tried stay as close to the original text as possible. Others have tried translate their version by grasping the "meaning" of the text and not stay word for word.

But the matter of fact we can not have a completely word for word translation in english since greek does not follow the exact pattern of the english language.

So all translations even the most strict word for word translations like KJV or Nasb are not exactly as the original, the translators made their best i am sure. But since greek have different order in which the put words in a sentence, all english translations are altered from the original text. If they where 100% true to the original text no one would understand a bible translated to english.

Personally i recommend people knowing what a close word for word translation says and then read if they want a more "free" translation.

Personally i read the message and found some light through it, i frequently read the NLT also and sometimes i get more light from that then from KJV. Although my most picked up version is KJV/NKJV.

Also good to know one can not/or should not do word for word study from a version like the message. But as far as just reading i think they have much to offer. I used to be very strict and offensive about bible versions, in some aspects i still have my doubts about the source of manuscripts NIV,NASB,ESV comes from, but that is another discussion. Yet i can benefit from them, and also i meet men and women that are light years ahead of me spiritually that prefers these bibleversions.

So really it is not what version we read or prefer, the question is if that version is making us more like Christ?

this should be our main concern for ourselves and others.


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CHRISTIAN

 2011/10/4 1:28Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

Since shortly after my conversion to Christ as a teen-ager I have been addicted to the habit of acquiring and being disappointed with new versions of the Scriptures, both revisions and new translations.

It is a habit I cannot shake off. In spite of a long record of frustrated hopes and cruel disappointments, to this day I have but to hear a new version of the Scriptures has come out and I am off to the book-seller to pick up a copy. As Ponce de Leon, otherwise a sensible enough fellow, knocked about the world looking for a nonexistent fountain of youth, so I continue to look for the new version that will make any other new versions unnecessary by bringing out the meanings of the Holy Scriptures as sharply as the developer brings out the details of the picture on a photographic plate.

But it never works out that way. After poring over the new book for a few days or weeks and finding that it is just one more version, I put it aside and return to my first love, the familiar King James Bible. I know its mistakes very well, its mistranslations and confused tenses; I should, for the Bible teachers are forever correcting it in public and the introductions to the new versions never tire of pointing out these flaws in the grand old English Bible.

It has been my experience that the new versions make at least one mistake for every one they correct, so by the time the trusting reader has reached the last chapter of the Book of Revelation he is back where he started and just goes out by that same door where in he went. And in the meanwhile he has lost the incalculable benefit of constant and intimate mental association with the clearest, richest and most beautiful English to be found anywhere among the libraries of the World, the Authorized Version.

I believe that my error has been that I have nursed the hope, perhaps subconsciously, that my dullness of spirit and coldness of heart are the result of not hearing the truth expressed clearly enough in the common language of the street; that if I could hear a promise or a commandment couched in different words it would be easier to believe and obey. But this is a gross fallacy. Words are only arbitrary symbols to convey meanings, and the meaning is all that matters.

God would impart an idea to mankind, so He employs a verbal symbol which the reader can understand. That is what language is for, and that is all it is for, unless, as I have suggested above, the language becomes a thing of beauty in inself and so exerts a cultural influence upon those who read it and hear it spoken. But that is secondary; the primary purpose of language is to express truth, and it is before the bar of truth that we must all stand at last.

Mark Twain, when asked what he did about the passages of Scripture he could not understand, is supposed to have replied that these did not bother him. "But the ones I can understand," he said, "often make me sweat." I believe that there is serious danger that we ignore the plain truth (which, incidentally, is about the same in all versions) while we search for novel meanings and more modern expressions of old truths which we know well enough but make no effort to obey.

The chief purpose of the Word of God is to reveal saving truth, to bring men to Christ, to make them holy, to draw them into loving communion with God and to teach them how to do good to all men, especially to them that are of the household of faith. Let a man study prayerfully any of the generally recognized versions, done by proficient and responsible scholars, and the Spirit will quicken the truth to his heart and lead him toward the ends God has in view for him. Almost everything depends upon his response to the Spirit's workings. While it is important that the translations be accurate and faithful, yet better versions do not make better men.

And this brings us to consider those translators who think to do God service by packing into the English text every possible shade of meaning the word will bear in the original. The synonyms are put in brackets and the reader, apparently, just takes his choice.

This would never do anywhere else. Imagine reading to a child. "Twinkle, twinkle (blink, wink, shine intermittently, sparkle), little (diminutive, small, wee, tiny) star (heavenly body, luminary, orb, sphere), How I wonder (question, puzzle over, dubitate) what you are (be, have identify with, belong under the description of), Up above (atop, opposite to down, contrary to direction of gravity) the world (the earth, the abode of human-kind) so high (elevated), Like a diamond (gem, precious stone, crystallized carbon) in the sky (the heavens, the firmament, the empyrean)"Yet this is the latest religious word game in evangelical circles and we are all urged to play at it. For myself, I cannot keep serious while reading such a version, so I just pass up these uncertain translators and turn to one who can make up his mind. I have a secret love for decisiveness.

It is quite natural for us humans to ignore the high moral intent of the Holy Scriptures and get lost in verbiage. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven,"says the old version, and multitudes over the centuries have knelt in pentitence and tearfully sought to know true poverty of spirit; lately the fad seems to be to try to find shades of meaning for the words and to express them in more colloquial language. I wonder if anyone benefits by having the same thing said several different ways for him.

A few hundred years ago it was considered very much the thing for ministers preaching in English to interlard their sermons with frequent Greek and Latin words and phrases, always left untranslated by the speaker. His hearers were no doubt duly impressed with his learning but they had not the faintest notion what he was talking about. He has now been displaced by the preacher who knows enough Greek to make him uncomfortable and can never resist the temptation to turn every sermon into a classroom lecture. I have sometimes thought (and I trust not uncharitably) that the knowledge of a little Greek is a great convenience to such a man, for the Greek being a remarkably accommodating language enables him to preach anything he wants to without being challenged.

All this is not to cry down true scholarship nor to discourage honest attempts to put the Bible into modem speech. It is rather to confess that I have not become a holier man nor a better preacher by my incurable addiction to new versions of the Scriptures. I find that if I am failing to live in accordance with the will of God, I get no relief by reading about that will in a new translation.

As soon as God shows a man the way, it is his duty and happy privilege to walk in it. If he refuses or neglects to walk in it he may seek some temporary consolation by looking about for some version that will say the same thing to him in a different way. While he is jockeying about for new shades of meaning his conscience may get a bit of rest, but I am sure that a faithful God will not let him escape. Sometime he'll have to face up to the meaning of things, no matter in what version they are expressed.

As I write I can see fifteen versions before me without turning my head and there are many more stashed about here and there. And they all say the same thing to me; namely, that I must trust Christ Jesus the Lord as my Saviour, love God with all my heart, soul and mind, and my neighbour as myself. They all say that I must be holy, humble, obedient, prayerful, pure, kindly, courageous and faithful. They all say that God is my Father and the Holy Spirit the inhabitant of my nature through the mystery of the new birth. And they all end with the cry for Christ's returning.

I really don't need any more new versions, but I'll probably buy the next one that comes out. Maybe someday I'll find something sufficiently different to justify the expense. But I haven't up to now. To echo Tozer's last phrase... neither have I and I sometimes tease the users of other versions by saying "I am using the KJV. This is just a temporary measure... until I can find something better". I'll start some of my reasons in my next post.

*A W Tozer uses both titles for the same version; The Authorized Version and The King James Version.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=9270&forum=36&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2011/10/4 1:42Profile









 Re:


No matter what the topics are - it's always great to see you posting again, Brother hmmhmm.

With respect and kind regards to you & yours.
His Peace to you all.

 2011/10/4 17:06
Jeff9
Member



Joined: 2009/10/30
Posts: 6


 Re:

True but Revelation 22.19 clearly says

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I know I am going to upset a lot of people here but would not want to be handcuffed to any of these translators on their deathbed of any other english speaking version then the King James and use these verse as my justification

 2011/10/6 9:45Profile
Jeff9
Member



Joined: 2009/10/30
Posts: 6


 Re:

Hello Twayneb and everyone else that has posted

In my experience the King James Bible is a bible that needs to be perservered with so the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth It cannot be revealed in one reading. Intellect is not even an issue as the Holy Spirit will reveal his truth to those who honestly seek and those who spend time with his word. A perfect example is D.L Moody who was illiterate but was used by God in a wonderous way. The revelation of the scriptures cannot come from the greatest natural mind so when we trust in the views of the natural man then we are in direct rebellion against God. A perfect example is Roman Catholism. As I said in my last message see Revelations 22.19. All these translations are the work of King of Counterfeits - Satan.
Trinitarian Bible Society have many pamphlets which would use scriptural evidence from KJV to support this theory. I for one hold the view that they have on the King James. It is not divinely inspired(as men were involved) but it is clearly the best translation that we have. When we try and seek answers from other translations we are only seeking mens views. We may feel after seeking such views that we have closure on such things but I believe we could be further away from the truth then before. The beauty of King James for me is when I study that word and do not seek any helps ie Commentarys & Study Bibles then I am putting my sole trust in the Holy Spirit and what I do learn by meditating upon the scripture will be useful in the future as Holy Spirit will reveal this to me at a relevant time in my life. He wont do this with mens view no matter how good they are. I exhort you all to try this and I believe you will get more from this then when you put your trust in these "so called helps".

Every blessing

Jeff

 2011/10/6 10:18Profile









 Re:

In Revelation it also said something to those who would add to the Word of God. Equally as serious.

 2011/10/6 10:43
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: Jeff9

Quote:
Jeff9 wrote:
True but Revelation 22.19 clearly says

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Are you seriously trying to say that John the Revelator (who wrote Revelation approx 95 AD), was speaking specifically about the King James Bible (that was to be written 1500 YEARS later)?

God bless,
Lisa


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Lisa

 2011/10/6 11:11Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 435


 Re:

Hi Jeff,

you said : "It is not divinely inspired(as men were involved)"

you seem to assume God cannot inspire men to do His work?

The result of a work has to be men's? So the "originals" are a work of some men too? You need to re-examine the thougth, God doesn't stop working, he said He will preserve AND refine The words of the LORD. Refine means the purging of elements of impurity caused by men, the ones writing down what they received by inspiration.

By the way, the King James is the 7th of English Bibles coming out of the text stream of Textus Receptus. A concidence? I think not.

Psalms 12:6  The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.



 2011/10/6 21:08Profile
Creation7
Member



Joined: 2011/8/16
Posts: 159


 Re:

Howdy, a-servant!

I do think you need to have a final authority in book form, or you are reduced into making either yourself or your favorite scholar your final authority.

What I'm wondering is, why do people say it is the KJV? I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong to believe that; I'm just wondering, why can't your final authority be, say, the Textus Receptus?

 2011/10/7 8:15Profile





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