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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

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PosterThread
tuc
Member



Joined: 2009/11/14
Posts: 266


 Re: Sinless perfection

I am uncertain what you mean by "sinless perfection".

Christians still have the capacity to sin.

The person we were "in Adam" was crucified with Jesus. However we haven't yet been delivered from the presence of our corrupted body's sin. Our spirits have been redeemed and our soul is being renewed. One day we will be delivered from the very presence of sin, but until we receive glorified bodies, we each possess the power of sin in our bodies. As we trust and rest In Christ at each moment, His Life empowers us to walk in victory over sin. No rule or law can ever empower us.

1 John 2:11-2, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


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Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

 2011/8/4 17:09Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 848
Long Beach CA USA

 Re:

Christinyou wrote,
"There is no distinction between the civil, ceremonial and moral Law, Law is Law, If I break any of the Law, it is sin."

Not so. What I and others are saying is that when we do not obey the civil and ceremonial OT law, we do not sin in disregarding it. However, we cannot disregard, "You shall not commit murder/or hate, You shall not commit adultery/or lust," etc. We are still bound to obey that aspect of God's law. This is throughout the NT, too many passages from it, some of which have been clearly pointed out in this thread.

You bring out a good point about the 4th commandment. That is the only one we are not commanded to obey in the same way that Israel was commanded. In the NT we learn that Christ has fulfilled the Sabbath and is our Sabbath rest therefore we are not required to set aside a certain day to obstain from any work. But all the other 9 are still binding on us to obey by the Spirit's power as we yield to Him.








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 2011/8/4 17:10Profile









 Re: I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

Not bad. A little "hyper" on the not under law emphasis.

To balance it out include "we establish the law." and "our love fulfills the law."

Also, many define "moral code" as christians dressing modestly, refraining from worldy entertainments, etc as a moral code or legalism.

This is not accurate.

When we proclaim we are not under the laws condemnation, we must be carefull to explain that we establish the law through our love.
We are not lawless, rather we now follow Law of Christ, Law of faith, Law of love.
This new law does contain what some would call "moral code".

 2011/8/4 17:13









 Re:

Ok. I normally try to stay out of these threads but here is my 2 cents worth. Does not Paul write in Gal.3:25 that now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law? Does not Paul write in Rom.10:4 that Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes? Does not Paul say to the Corithians that it is because of him that you are in Christ Jrsus who has become for us wisdom from God, that is our righteousness, holiness, and redemption (1 Cor.1:30).

Seems to me Jesus and not Moses is the standard by which we live. Just my 2 cents worth.

Posted by Blaine Scogin

 2011/8/4 17:22
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 848
Long Beach CA USA

 Re:

Untobabes wrote, "I think Oracio here is when people will disagree on this thread. When you said we do not fulfill the law perfectly in this life.The question arise, what do we do when we fail to fufill the law perfectly? do we repent or do we just go on believing we are not under condemnation? Those who say we are no longer under the law will find no necessity to repent, but if you notice the argument the Apostle is using is " We are no longer under the law because the flesh is dead" Since dead flesh does not sin, then there is no need for the law. But if we sin, that proves that the flesh is not dead, and therefore we are still under the law. For the law is made to restrain sinners 1 Tim: 1: 9,10"

Good points. You asked, "what do we do when we fail..do we repent or do we just go on believing we are not under condemnation?"

The true Christian will be convicted and repent when convicted. This is a lifelong process of sanctification. Our Lord taught us how to pray and included confessing our sins to God. We will all still stumble in many ways as James 3 points out. But not in the same way as the unsaved. They deliberately sin without regard to God's law. We will still sin, and we will not lose our salvation everytime we sin, otherwise no one would be saved or be able to have any assurance of salvation.

Even though I am in Christ, I am sensitive to the fact that I sometimes need to confess sins to God and repent and get back up and go on. We live a life of repentance, but it is totally different from the life of the unsaved. It's been said that the true Christian stumbles falls into sin, while the unsaved or false converts run and dive into it.


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 2011/8/4 17:22Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 859


 Re:

Martyr,

We are saved by the righteousness of Christ dwelling in us. What does it then mean that the righteousness of Christ endwells someone.
It means that as Christ loved unto death and laid His life, so also those who live in Christ will do the same through Him. Even as Christ never had a thought of adultery or envy, so also those who are in Christ. and even as Christ lived His whole life in perfect submission to God the Father, so also those who are in Christ.

Being in Christ is perfection lived in actual and practical way.

 2011/8/4 17:33Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 859


 Re:

Oracio,
The original post of this thread was trying to establish from Rom 7 :1-6 that we are no longer under the law. The point the Apostle is making( believe it or not) is sinless perfection. He says: we are no longer under the law because the law came to restrain the flesh. For example: the flesh wants to lust, but the law says there are consequences to lust, but the law could not restrain the flesh by any other means but only fear. However, the flesh can not be restrained because the flesh is corrupt from head to toe. but Christ now came and put the flesh to death. Now the law has no effect to condemn because there are no violations of the law. The law condemns violations, that is what the law does best. the only way to stop the law from condemning is to kill the thing that causes the violations namely the flesh. That is what Christ does when he abides in the believer by the Spirit.
To say then that we are in Christ and yet the flesh shows manifestations of life is a contradiction.
That is the argument that Paul puts forth.

Edit-
In ther words: Paul is saying we are no longer under condemnation not because the law is being lifted or taken away, but rather because it is no longer violated. Because the flesh that caused the violations is now dead.
Now to say that we are not under no condemnation of the law yet continue to violate it is a contradiction.

 2011/8/4 17:45Profile
Oracio
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 848
Long Beach CA USA

 Re:

Untobabes wrote,
"To say then that we are in Christ and yet the flesh shows manifestations of life is a contradiction."

Indeed that is where we will have to disagree Untobabes. Sinless perfection is not taught in the Bible. It will deceive you into thinking you do not sin when you in fact do still sin and need to confess it and repent continuously in this life. Those who believe in sinless perfection have a very low view of the standard of God's law. I remember a Christian who was caught up in that doctrine. I knew that he still sinned everyday in some areas, like laziness at work. But he was oblivious to his sins and thought he was being perfect. He did not own his sin to be sin. That is what that doctrine will cause you to do. You will justify your sins and be blinded into thinking you are perfect when you are not. It will cause you to be legalistic and pharisaical and look down on others with self-righteousness. Just a friendly exhortation:)


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 2011/8/4 17:58Profile
UntoBabes
Member



Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 859


 Re:

Oracio, would you please not worry about what I believe.
We want to discuss what Paul is saying in Rom 7: 1-6.
What is the reason he gives for not being under the law?
Please read the Edit part of my post and tell me if you agree or not.

Are we no longer condemned because the law was taken away or because the violator of the law ( namely the flesh ) is now dead? What does the Scripture say? Read Rom 7:1-6 again.

 2011/8/4 18:05Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1233
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Oracio: You wrote that in the NT epistles we DO have a set of RULES we are commanded to abide by.

I pray we are not talking around an issue and really saying the same thing. Yes we are commanded to live lives of Godliness and to abstain from all forms of wickedness in the NT. I guess my point is that these "rules" are not an extension of the OT law. They are not the "moral" portion of the law. The OT law served the purpose of convincing us all under sin and bringing to bear the full weight of wrath and death that trying to live lives pleasing to God in our own ability produces. The OT law could never bring right standing or righteousness agreed. But the OT law was also never the standard that we were to live up to. If living up to a standard were the goal then we are still hopeless for God's standard of holiness is even above the commands to holiness in the NT. Praise God for His grace.

But Paul spoke of a place in which we are dead to ourselves and dead to sin (Rom 6) and caps it off with the analogy of being dead to one spouse and married to another (Rom 7). I agree with you totally that we are commanded to abstain from all form of wickedness and ungodliness and walk in the fruit of the Spirit. But this is done as walking dead men who can do absolutely nothing in their own power. The death and rebirth so transforms and regenerates us that we live lives of holiness as we walk with God in the Spirit.

I guess the danger is that we might somehow simply exchange one set of laws (OT)for what we perceive to be another superior set of laws (NT) and just continue to try to serve God out of the oldness of letter and not out of the newness of Spirit. I tell you brother that this is a terrible bondage.


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Travis

 2011/8/4 18:58Profile





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