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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

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a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 Re:

To the other readers of this thread that were wondering where I was going with "the law is holy" here someone that has discovered it also. So I'm not the first that noticed that, although John Wesley admits that "there are few subjects within the whole compass of religion so little understood as this".

He also says "But a careful observer of the Apostle's discourse will not be content with theses light explications of it" mentioning the usual explanations that try to overlook it.

That's true, we should not be non-careful observers, let's take time to see the integrity of ALL scripture to understand what he already understood:

John Wesley : Original, Nature, Property, and Use of Law

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6108

 2011/9/10 21:48Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re: John Wesley

Thanks A-Servant for pointing out the teachings of John Wesley, whose writings I am personally not familiar with.

But what he writes way back then seem to me to mirror exactly of what I have written in my prior posts, including my last one above.

Specifically:

"But now we are delivered from the [Mosaic] law;" from that whole moral, as well as ceremonial economy; "that being dead whereby we were held;" -- that entire institution being now as it were dead, and having no more authority over us than the husband, when dead, hath over his wife: "That we should serve him," -- who died for us and rose again, "in newness of spirit;" -- in a new spiritual dispensation; "and not in the oldness of the letter;" -- with a bare outward service, according to the letter of the Mosaic institution (Rom. 7:1-6.)

John Wesley recognizes that the Mosaic Law is dead, including the Moral Law, giving way to the New Covenant of Jesus Christ.

Here is more detail context of the above quote taken from John Wesley per A-Servants quote in his post above:

"2. But a careful observer of the Apostle's discourse will not be content with theses light explications of it. And the more he weighs the words, the more convinced he will be, that St. Paul, by the law mentioned in this chapter, does not mean either the ancient law of Rome, or the ceremonial law of Moses. This will clearly appear to all who attentively consider the tenor of his discourse. He begins the chapter, "Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law,)" to them who have been instructed therein from their youth, "that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (What! the law of Rome only, or the ceremonial law? No, surely; but the moral law.) "For," to give a plain instance, "the woman which hath an husband is bound by the" moral "law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law: so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." From this particular instance the Apostle proceeds to draw that general conclusion:

"Wherefore, my brethren," by a plain parity of reason, "ye also are become dead to the law," the whole Mosaic institution, "by the body of Christ," offered for you, and bringing you under a new dispensation: "That ye should" without any blame "be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead;" and hath thereby given proof of his authority to make the change; "that we should bring forth fruit unto God." And this we can do now, whereas before we could not: "for when we were in the flesh" -- under the power of the flesh, that is, of corrupt nature, which was necessarily the case till we knew the power of Christ's resurrection, "the motions of sins, which were by the law," -- which were shown and inflamed by the Mosaic law, not conquered, "did work in our members," -- broke out various ways, "to bring forth fruit unto death." "But now we are delivered from the law;" from that whole moral, as well as ceremonial economy; "that being dead whereby we were held;" -- that entire institution being now as it were dead, and having no more authority over us than the husband, when dead, hath over his wife: "That we should serve him," -- who died for us and rose again, "in newness of spirit;" -- in a new spiritual dispensation; "and not in the oldness of the letter;" -- with a bare outward service, according to the letter of the Mosaic institution (Rom. 7:1-6.)

John Wesley goes on to point out that the [613] commandments of the Mosaic Law were both moral and ceremonial, of themselves, very good laws and reflective of God's nature, but due to our weak human nature, it was to us, as Paul pointed out, these Laws were worthless and useless in that the Law condemned everyone, no one could be saved by keeping the Mosaic Laws, except God in the Flesh, Jesus Christ, who took on Himself the stripes we deserved, and the punishment and death that was due us.

When Jesus died on the cross, The Veil in the Temple that separated humans from the presence of God, who dwelt in the Holy of Holies, was torn asunder, thereby ending the separation of man from God. For all who choose to become followers of Christ have the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in each of us, working in us to transform our very natures, that we may do the good that God created us to do. We each have a personal relationship with God. And where there is a change of Priesthood and a New Covenant, there is a change of Law. And through these New Laws, God keeps us. The Royal Law of Love, The Law of Liberty, and the Law of the Spirit of Life in Chris Jesus.

These Laws puts us in daily fellowship with God, as if we were back in the Garden of Eden, and we talk with God and he hears us, and His Holy Spirit dwelling in us prays for our needs, even ones we do not even know, and our faith is to believe Him and Trust Him in all things, and to love one another, and to be impartial to all.

And upon Jesus death, God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant with all its' Laws (as prophesied in Zechariah, directly after the Prophecy of the burning and destruction of Herod's Temple.) For the Mosaic Laws could not save anyone.

As for us Christians, we died to the Mosaic laws, that we may enter a New Covenant in Jesus our savior, as Wesley pointed out. A covenant whereby we have a personal relationship with God, WHO transforms our inner nature daily via the indwelling Holy Spirit, God in us, so that we may naturally do the good that God created to us, as we walk with Him with trust and faith. We have fellowship with God, just as if we were back in the Garden of Eden, or perhaps even better.

 2011/9/11 0:50Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 Re:

"seem to me to mirror exactly of what I have written in my prior posts"

Hahaha, best joke of the day. No, absolutely not. He can see both sides, you can see only yours.

That's why it best to read the real Wesley, not the critics' understanding of it, or one will miss the key points of this article.

 2011/9/11 3:54Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re:

by a-servant on 2011/9/11 0:54:06

"seem to me to mirror exactly of what I have written in my prior posts"

Hahaha, best joke of the day. No, absolutely not. He can see both sides, you can see only yours.

That's why it best to read the real Wesley, not the critics' understanding of it, or one will miss the key points of this article."

Yes, I agree with you A-Servant. I am not versed in the views of Wesley. I'd rather simply use the the scriptures in context to guide me into God's plans for our salvation.

I do agree with Wesley that the Mosaic Law died, as God annihilated it per Zechariah chapter 11., and we are no longer wed to to the Mosaic Laws (i.e. Covenant). Thus we are free to embrace the New Covenant of Jesus Christ with it's Laws by which God has chosen those who believe Him. As I've been saying, or rather, scripture states, where there is a change of Priesthood, there is a change of Law. The Mosaic Law has given way to the Laws of Jesus Christ of the New Covenant.

And I certainly do not judge your Christianity in anyway A-Servant, that is between you and God. I am simply mystified why you still embrace the Mosaic Covenant, or perhaps am I misunderstanding your point of view, and you are not actually embracing the Mosaic Covenant as the path of a Christian's salvation?

 2011/9/12 0:19Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3397
Ca.

 Re:

Art, Your posts of late have been right on and questions I have had for 30 years are being answered by the Holy Spirit revealing to the renewing of my mind to the Mind of Christ. It is like a flood, I could see the clouds and knew what was comming but could not quite see the outcome and reason for this flood of revelation answers.

Gods timing is always perfect.

Praise God for His revelation to you.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
"Christ in you the Hope of Glory" "The life I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God."

 2011/9/12 16:38Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re:

I am very glad for you, Phillip. I myself was delighted to learn these things. It reveals How much God loves us, that He chose us, and that He called us to be His children. and being His sheep we recognized His voice. For I could not save myself through my deeds, my works, but I am saved by the works of Jesus on my behalf. A true Gift from God to those us who simply accept this gift.

1 Co 1:18-31

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

" I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
NASU

 2011/9/12 19:19Profile





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