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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

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a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 Re:

Well great, now you just have to define these expressions you affirm yourself with like "law of liberty".

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:11

 2011/9/6 21:29Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1296
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Jas 2:8-12 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: (9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. (10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. (11) For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

I think it is important that we look at the entirety of context of these verses. James is speaking about having respect of persons. Specifically he is speaking about respecting the well-off and despising the poor. The entirety of James 2 deals with this subject. Although there are lessons we can pull out, we must be careful not to overstep context.

First he says that if you fulfill the royal law. This means the chief or preeminent law. That law is that a man should love the Lord God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself. Remember Jesus said all the law is fulfilled in this. But, James says, if you think you are fulfilling that law and have respect of persons then you are judged as a sinner by the law. He points out that to keep all of the law and yet offend in one point, namely respect of persons, you are made a transgressor of the same order as if you had broken the whole law. However there is a chief or preeminent law, the law of liberty. Reference the teachings of Paul and you find the law of liberty is the freedom from the bondage of the old covenant and its laws. So we should speak and do as those who will be judged by that law of liberty.

The law of liberty is not as the old covenant. It is not contained in carnal ordinances but rather is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus. We now live governed by the Holy Spirit. There is no respect of persons in the Holy Spirit. If we are walking in the Spirit and allowing Him to live out through us we will not respect persons.

Later James deals with faith and works. Again we need to put this into context. You say you have faith but have respect of persons and court the rich and famous and ignore the poor. What good then is your faith? Is it genuine? If it were would you not find yourself being compelled by the Holy Spirit to love the poor and to esteem them on the same level as the rich? Would this not be demonstrated in your works? If so then to declare faith and not have accompanying works shows that your faith is dead.

So James is not making a case for any kind of NT law or list of statutes under which a Christian should operate. He is simply saying that those who have respect of personsl are not operating in the Spirit. There is a disconnect between what they profess and what is evident in their actions, and the actions are telling the story as it really is.


_________________
Travis

 2011/9/7 17:44Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 420


 Re: I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

But,
Are we not resurreced from the dead,to serve the LIVING God?

We were once dead in our sins.

 2011/9/7 18:55Profile
Elibeth
Member



Joined: 2011/8/14
Posts: 420


 Re:

The Word says:The gospel, that Jesus preached was `The gospel of the Kingdom'
Paul said many times, he preached`Jesus' gospel or `the gospel of God'
Paul continued to preach the gospel of the kingdom and the princables of that kingdom.

Isn't The kingdom a place where the King rules..is Lord.
Doesn't He come in ,by way of the Holy Spirit to lead us?
Paul said: `For as many as are Led by the Spirit of God, They are the children/sons of God'

Lovingly in Him,
Elizabeth




 2011/9/7 21:01Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 Re:

True freedom is walking in the Spirit, and to be led by the Spirit of God is not in contrast to walking in the law of liberty. The second is integral to the first.

How do you know if you're not walking in the Spirit? When you sin, or break the Royal Law. When you mistakenly think you are walking in the spirit while you keep sinning, you're walking in a counterfeit spirit. Here a look at the Holy standard of God as expressed in His commandments can bring you back to Jesus, if you repent, not otherwise. In that other case you stay carnal and will fight God's law by denying the standard and validity of His law, as Paul says you cannot be subject to the law of God::

Romans 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

If someone thinks the law of God is an enemy of the Gospel, they don't understand yet how that rlationship is to be really understood. You might find these two articles here helpful:

A BRIEF STUDY ON "THE LAW OF LIBERTY" IN THE EPISTLE OF JAMES.
http://www.revealed.org/liberty.htm

Under The Law
http://obeyingthetruth.com/articles/under_the_laws.html

 2011/9/7 23:53Profile









 Re A-servant

What law are you speaking of? What do you see as God's ultimate standard of holiness?

Blaine

 2011/9/8 0:27
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 multiple laws

Romans 7:12  Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

mentioned only once, so there is no other holy law or standard. Which law is holy according to Paul? Hint: related to "commandment"



What is a better question maybe is which of the multiple mentioned laws is more powerful to bring us to God's ultimate standard

Romans 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

here two laws are in contrast, the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus is more powerful than the law of sin and death

the law of sin and death is NOT 'The law of God' by the way, it simply means "the soul that sins shall die"


therefore Paul can say without contradicting himself:

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Romans 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Simply because he talks here not about the law of sin and death. James calls the law of God by two other names as mentioned before, and so directly references Jesus' teaching in Matthew regarding the practical meaning of what Paul's statement of 'the law is spiritual' means in Rom 7:14.

God's law is spiritual, and is holy because it reflects the standards of the law giver, a Holy God.

Therefore Jesus the spiritual law giver says this in John's vision at the very end of Revelation 22:14 in a validating way, and I have faith to believe the one that will be the judge over all to set the final standard:  "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."


 2011/9/8 9:18Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re: multiple laws

Not so A-Servant.

You based your argument by posting two versus completely out of context, then you added your own false meaning to the two sentences you divorced from their context in Paul's letter.

Furthermore you ignore Paul's other writings, as well as John's letters. Paul clearly argues that the Mosaic Law was good, but we in the flesh could never keep all the requirements of the Mosaic Law, because our fleshly nature. He gave the example of coveting, that the Mosaic Law to not covet is a good Law, but due to the weakness of our fleshly nature, The Mosaic Law against Coveting actually causes us to Covet all the more.

Ro 8:1-11
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Why?

"2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death."

The Spirit of Life is the Holy Spirit that dwells in all who accept the Blood of Jesus Christ as taking away all their sins for all time. This is the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. The Mosaic Covenant was satisfied by the Life of Jesus who kept the entire Mosaic Law on our behalf, whereby God annihilated the Mosaic Covenant

Zec 11:8-13
Then I annihilated the three shepherds in one month, for my soul was impatient with them, and their soul also was weary of me. 9. Then I said, "I will not pasture you. What is to die, let it die, and what is to be annihilated, let it be annihilated; and let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 I took my staff Favor and cut it in pieces, to break my covenant which I had made with all the peoples. 11 So it was broken on that day, and thus the afflicted of the flock who were watching me realized that it was the word of the LORD. 12 I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. 13 Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD. NASU

There was only one Bilateral Covenant God made with the peoples, it is the Mosaic Covenant. All others were unilateral.


3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NASU

Christians have God dwelling in us via the Holy Spirit. We walk with God by faith, knowing that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit in us, thus we have the ever presence of God in us by whom we fellowship daily with God, Whom also transforms our very nature as we walk with Him in our daily fellowship with Him. I have no need for the Mosaic laws because God dwells in me, making changes in me, which I perceive and actuate that I may grow spiritually.

1 Co 2:10-16

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. NASU

Now Paul does warn us against being immoral, but he does not appeal to the Mosaic Laws at all, but to the New Covenant whereby Jesus has saved us.

1 Co 6:12-20
All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. 14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body. NASU

"ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL FOR ME, BUT NOT ALL THINGS ARE PROFITABLE."

And Paul goes on to argue why we should not join ourselves sexually to a prostitute. Paul does not argue from the Mosaic Law, but from the New Covenant, whereby we have a very personal relationship with God.

All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable.

It is lawful for me to go to a prostitute, but if I am truly honest with myself, I ought to perceive that my sex with the prostitute is very shallow, she has no real feelings for me, she is doing it for money, and she most likely is a slave to a pimp, and likely addicted to drugs, and may even have a communicable disease.

In addition I have the Holy Spirit dwelling me. Thus I have a very good personal relationship with God via the indwelling Holy Spirit, He loves me and I Him. So it is not profitable for me to go to a prostitute. Profitable would be leading the prostitute out of prostitution and to salvation via the gospel of Jesus Christ, that would be a true act of love with her best interest in mind.

But under the Mosaic Covenant, I am allowed to have several wives, and even if I have a wife, I may also have sex with my female slaves if I so desire, even if her parents are my slaves too, and being slaves they have no say in the matter.

But I am not under the Mosaic Laws, of which I am very glad. And I am very happy to find myself under the New Covenant whereby I have an actual real personal relationship with God. And He walks with me, and He talks with me, and He tells me that I am His own. And the joy we share, as we tarry there, none has never known



_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/9/9 5:01Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 Re:

You didn't actually really understand what I was talking about. But you also don't believe Jesus in Matt 5. Neither in James and the "law of liberty" that confirms Jesus. Neither in Paul when he talks about something you cannot understand. That's why you got stuck on your idea this is all about the Mosaic Law. Or the freedom to go to prostitutes. Yikes. No thanks.

 2011/9/9 10:25Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re:

by a-servant on 2011/9/9 7:25:38

"You didn't actually really understand what I was talking about. But you also don't believe Jesus in Matt 5. Neither in James and the "law of liberty" that confirms Jesus. Neither in Paul when he talks about something you cannot understand. That's why you got stuck on your idea this is all about the Mosaic Law. Or the freedom to go to prostitutes. Yikes. No thanks."

Jesus in Matt 5 & 6 & 7, was preaching solely to His fellow Jews, people of the Mosaic Covenant, encouraging them to keep the Mosaic Laws, just as He was keeping the mosaic Laws. There were no Christians when Jesus preached.

The New Covenant was established only after God the Father annihilated the Mosaic Covenant, and this is a fact that you seemingly do not care to believe, even though this was predicted in the OT. You have a habit of taking scriptures out of context to suit your personal beliefs.

You never respond to what I actually write. For instance, Paul's Book of Hebrews where Paul states the fact that Jesus is not of the Priesthood of Levi, whom were the priests who oversaw the teaching and the keeping of the Mosaic Laws by God's people, the Jews. But that Jesus is of a much higher Priesthood, the everlasting Priesthood of Melchizedek. The book of Hebrews clearly states that where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a Change of Law. This change of law is everything to the Christian of the New Covenant. Paul also adds that the Mosaic law is was worthless and useless in that it could not save anyone.

Jesus is not our cheerleader, cheering for us to keep the Mosaic Laws. Rather, He presides over a far more superior Covenant, which we call the New Covenant.

In Galatians, Paul gives a stinging indictment of self style Christians who put themselves under the the Mosaic Laws, and insist others to follow their error.

Gal 3:1-14
You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain — if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Even so AbrahamBELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" — in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
NASU

Next, Paul explains why the Mosaic Law was given.

Gal 3:15-29
Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, " And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

{NOTE EDIT: SOME BIBLES, INCLUDING THE NASU, TRANSLATE THE GREEK "FAITH JESUS", AS "FAITH IN JESUS", THAT IS A MISTRANSLATION. THE GREEK "FAITH JESUS" CAN ONLY BE TRANSLATED "FAITH OF JESUS". IN ORDER TO WRITE 'FAITH IN JESUS' IN GREEK REQUIRES "EIS" OR "EIN", BOTH WHICH MEANS "IN". ABSENT 'EIS' OR 'EIN' THE GREEK "FAITH JESUS" MEANS THE FAITH BELONGS TO JESUS, AND NOT THE CHRISTIAN. Of course, we Christians have faith in Jesus finished work on the cross by WHOM we have been saved by the Faith of Jesus. A true gift from God to all who believe and accept the gift Jesus has accomplished for us. If we had to perform works of the LAW to be saved, then it is not a gift.]

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the [Mosaic]law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith OF Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. NASU

Paul now gives a stinging indictment of the Mosaic Law, clearly indicating that we Christians are not under the Mosaic Law (i.e. The Bond Woman), but under the New Covenant (i.e. The Free Woman), :

Gal 4:21-31
Tell me, you who want to be under law [that is you, A-Servant], do you not listen to the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written,

"REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."

28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. But what does the Scripture say?

"CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. NASU

Gal 5:1-12

It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. NASU

Gal 5:13-15
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. NASU

Thus the whole Mosaic Law is replaced by this one Law of Christ, which Jesus also gave to His fellow Jews in His Sermon on the Mount: "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." And Jesus told us how to identify that neighbor in His example of the Good Samaritan, and He wants us to be that Good Samaritan.

The Mosaic Law forbade eating meat sacrificed to an Idol. But as Christians, we may eat meat sacrificed to an Idol, as long as we are not the ones doing the sacrifice, for that would be Idol worship. But as for the meat, it is just cooked meat and there is nothing wrong with eating it. Such meat was sold in the market place after being sacrificed to an Idol. But Paul adds, even though we have the liberty to eat that meet under the New Covenant, but Paul adds that if a less mature Christian is offended by any Christian eating meat that had been sacrificed to an Idol, then we should not eat that meat so as not to cause the more immature brother in Christ from stumbling. Thus the Law of liberty places us in a wide open place of making many possible choices, but let us curb our liberty if it causes a less mature member in Christ to stumble. For the law of Love balances the Law of Liberty.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/9/9 11:52Profile





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