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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I have no relationship to the law. It does not apply to me.

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1294
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Phillip: The Jews kept external ordinances. They were imposed upon them. We now have the laws of God written in our hearts. In other words, when we are born again and have the Spirit of God fellowshipping with our own spirit (we often call it having the Spirit of God inside of us) we are now governed by the Spirit of God. It is really the same thing I think as Christ living in us, or rather through us. So our actions are an outflow of that which is internal rather than a dogged obedience to that which is being imposed externally.


_________________
Travis

 2011/8/23 18:55Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3405
Ca.

 Re:

Travis, I was just making a distinction of who the scripture was speaking to, in writing words in hearts and the living Word now being our whole life and our spirit by His Spirit living in us. I don't want to start a way, but I believe the word written in hearts pertains to the elect remnant of Israel in the 1000 yr. reign of Christ on earth.
I believe there is a difference in the rhema word written in hearts and Logos living word by which we are born again, Christ Himself being the very center of our life.

Thank you, Phillip


_________________
Carl Phillip Peterson

 2011/8/23 19:01Profile
kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

I hope we are all seeing how we create a paradox when we completely take the commandments of God out of the picture.

For example, if you teach a new member in the faith that law of God is done away with by taking them through the writings of Paul, what will you say when you finally get to Revelations and all of a sudden you read texts like....

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 2011/8/23 22:32Profile
a-servant
Member



Joined: 2008/5/3
Posts: 347


 Re:

If it takes until Revelation it's late, but not too late to recognize the error. However it would have been possible to understand it earlier, if the position from where these verses are written would have been rightly understood. These are all proof-texts to check if someone is actually born of the Spirit, or not:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 3:22  And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1 John 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6  And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

This is not millenium stuff, or to a selected group of believers only, this is now. The ones having the commandments written on their hearts can check if that has actually happened, it's kind of a reverse-check to see if we have received the Holy Spirit that makes us WANT to please God, and enables us to do so, or not.

Nothing here speaks about "get into bondage and you will gain a favour" - that would be an error in understanding resulting from a 'legalistic marriage' where you don't actually care about your partner. You just said "I will" once because you heard about the benefits of heaven. But are still unvonverted in regard to love.




 2011/8/24 5:28Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1294
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Phillip:

Paul in Hebrews 8 gives commentary on this verse and says that it speaks of those who live under the new covenant. I think we could say that when those of Israel who turn to Christ as Messiah and are born again will also experience what I have experienced under the new covenant that this scripture also applies to them, but I think Paul spells it out pretty clearly here.


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Travis

 2011/8/24 7:51Profile
brothergary
Member



Joined: 2011/8/6
Posts: 103


 Re:



 2011/8/24 8:38Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3405
Ca.

 Re:

Travis, is not national Israel the same today, not believing in Christ. The new covenant written in their hearts has not come yet, written written in their hearts, not attained by the Living Word Himself being born again in the believer. Individual Jews can be in the same body of Christ that the Church is, that is all believers. These Jews do not need the word written in their hearts, Christ the Living Word is now their life and spirit like ours.

This is a little long, but it explains it better or should I say easier than me doing it, it is the way I believe Heb 8 shows the word written in the Heart is for Israel and not the Body of Christ the Church.

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Hebrews 8:1

CHAPTER 8

1. Christ, the High Priest (8:1-6)
2. The old covenant and the new (8:7-13)
Verses 1-6. The new priesthood which the better priest exerciseth in heaven furthermore implies also a change in the sacrifices and in the covenant. This is now more fully developed in the last three chapters of this section. There is first of all a summary. The priest we have is not ministering on earth but "we have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man." Every high priest had to offer gifts and sacrifices, so it was of necessity that He also should have something to offer. What He has offered is brought out in the ninth and tenth chapters. As high priest He offered up Himself on the cross and then, as the high priest who had brought this perfect offering, He passed through the heavens and into heaven itself. If He were upon the earth and His priesthood went no further than the earth, He would not be a priest. He has no place among the Levitical priests, the priests who offered according to the law, whose office and ministrations were but shadows of heavenly things; but He hath obtained a more excellent ministry, because He is the mediator of a better covenant, which has for a foundation better promises.

As Christ came not from Aaron's family He could not be a priest after that pattern; His priesthood is wholly different, for it is heavenly and exercised in glory. With this more excellent priesthood, foreshadowed in the earthly Levitical priesthood, the latter has been completely set aside. This is the truth these Hebrew believers needed more fully to lay hold on, because the earthly tabernacle was still standing and the earthly priests were still exercising their empty and meaningless functions. And that which is put away, which is gone, because the one great offering was brought, and the true high priest has entered into the holiest and is in the presence of God for His people, Satan has successfully introduced and established upon Christian ground as one of the most soul-destroying inventions. Ritualistic Christendom with a priesthood patterned after the extinct Jewish priesthood, with a worship more or less after the model of Israel's worship, is the shade of the departed shadow. It is apostasy from the truth of the gospel of grace; it is a wicked denial of the gospel of our salvation. This priestly assumption of men is the worst possible corruption of the doctrine of Christ.

Verses 7-13. The preceding verse showed that Christ is the mediator of a better covenant. This leads next to a contrast between the first (the old) and the new covenant. A covenant contains the necessary principles established by God under which man may live with God, in which He deals with man. There are only two covenants. The old covenant which was established at Sinai, the law-covenant, and the new covenant which in its fullest meaning has not yet been ratified, for it also relates to the people of Israel as we shall soon learn from this chapter. Strictly speaking the gospel, the proclamation of the salvation of God, is not a covenant. Still those who accept the gospel possess all the spiritual blessings of this new covenant, and much more than Israel can ever possess, when at last as a converted nation this new covenant will be established with them.

The argument is simple. The fact that a new covenant is promised shows that the old covenant was insufficient. "For if that first one had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for the second." It could not accomplish what was in God's heart to bring His people into the closest and nearest relationship with Himself. The first covenant, the law, could not do this, and therefore "finding fault, He saith unto them, Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not regard them, saith the Lord."

This first covenant was conditional, and the people did not keep this covenant and the Lord, because they were disobedient, did not regard them. That first covenant was unto their condemnation. And therefore the Lord had announced through the prophet Jeremiah that a new covenant was to be consummated for Israel and Judah, the same people with whom the first covenant was made. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws in their mind, and with them in their hearts; and I will be God unto them, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: for all shall know me of the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins, and their iniquities I will remember no more" (Jer 31:31-34). This new covenant is unlike the old one in that it has no condition attached to it. In it the Lord speaks alone in words of sovereign grace--"I will." It is the same what Jehovah promised to the nation through the prophet Ezekiel (chapter 36). And this grace covenant awaits its fulfillment for that nation in coming days.

The ground of this new covenant is the sacrificial death of Christ, His blood, as we learn from His own words when He instituted His supper. Because He died for that nation (Joh 6:51-52) all Israel--the house of Israel and the house of Judah--will be brought into the promised blessings through this grace covenant. In the meantime, while Israel has not yet entered into this new covenant, Gentiles, who are by nature aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise (no new covenant being promised to Gentiles), believing in Christ, are made nigh by the blood of Christ (Eph 2:12-13), enjoy every spiritual blessing in heavenly places in Christ, become members of the body of Christ and joint heirs with the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 28:27-28 For the heart of this people (Israel) is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (Ro 11:25) then God will turn in mercy to His people Israel, whom He hath not cast away, and this new covenant will be fully established and all the promises as to restoration, temporal blessings, as well, spiritual blessings, so richly promised throughout the Old Testament prophetic word, will through grace come upon them. Then their sins and iniquities will be remembered no more. It all comes to pass when He comes again, who alone can turn away ungodliness from Jacob. What light and joy these facts of the old covenant set aside and the promises of the new covenant must have brought to the hearts of these Hebrew believers who read first this great message.

("Modern Judaism [both rabbinical and rationalistic] is not able to account for the cessation of sacrifices and the Levitical dispensation. The former acknowledges that in the destruction of the temple and the present condition of Israel without high priest and offerings, divine judgment on the nation's sin is expressed: the idea of atonement through a vicarious sacrifice is not quite extinct, as appears in the rite of the cock performed on the eve of the day of atonement, though devoid of all Scriptural authority. Rationalistic Judaism has departed still further from the truth. Rejecting the idea of substitution and expiation in connection with sacrifices, it regards the present condition of Israel as a more spiritual development, misinterpreting the protests of David and the prophets against a mere external view of the ceremonial law (Ps 40:7; Ho 6:6; Jer 7:21-23). The old has indeed vanished; but according to the will of God, because the true light now shineth, because the substance has come in Christ" A. Saphir.)

In Christ: Phillip.


_________________
Carl Phillip Peterson

 2011/8/24 16:48Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re:

I agree with kwanemenat and A-Servant posts directly above.

It would be wrong to take God's Commandments of the New Covenant out of the picture. These are the New Laws, The Laws of Jesus Christ. As Hebrews clearly point out, where there is a change of Covenants, from The Mosaic Covenant to The Covenant we have in Jesus Christ, there is a change of Law.

Okay, perhaps Kwanemenat and A-Servant meant the Mosaic Laws, I'm not sure, but if so, it is wrong thinking.

By the former we are saved by works and please God by our works as given by the letter of the Mosaic Laws. By the Laws of Christ we are saved by faith and please God by our faith. We enter into the promised Land by Faith.

For we have left the Laws of Mosaic Covenant, and entered into a New Covenant in Jesus Christ. As Christians we have set aside the former Law so we can be saved by the laws of the New Covenant in God through Jesus. And we now live by the three Laws of Jesus Christ.

LAW 1: The Royal Law of Love: Mt 22:36-40
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' NASU


Law 2: The Law of Liberty: Lk 6:36-38: Jesus speaking: "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure — pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return." NASU

LAW 3: The Law of the indwelling Holy Spirit of God.
Ro 8:1-11
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. FOR WHAT THE [Mosaic] Law COULD NOT DO, WEAK AS IT WAS THROUGH THE FLESH, GOD DID: SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH AND AS AN OFFERING OF SINFUL FLESH AND AS AN OFFERING FOR SIN, HE CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH, SO THAT THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NASU

Try hard to understand what this 3rd Law of Jesus Christ actually means, do not read your preconceptions into it, it means exactly what it says. Jesus did it all for us on the Cross, His atoning blood, one sacrifice for all time, has washed away all our sins for all time, we who accept His blood as atonement for all of our sins for all time. And by this faith we Christians received the Holy Spirit, God in us who will work God's good will in us until the Day of Christ. Stop looking to Moses for help.

What if, What if , What if, stop with the 'What if's', believe God and walk by faith, not by sight. It is not up to you to "DO IT", you are not in this alone, the HELPER which is in you will transform you. God will not fail you, you who have placed your trust in Jesus and His atoning blood. Be aware that the Holy Spirit of God dwells in you, be aware of the changes He is making in you, and actuate these changes God is making in you. God gives the sword, the shield, the helmet, but you must practice using them that your skills with them grows and bear fruit. Replace these with the fruits of the Spirit, and you will perceive what God is doing in you in bringing you to be the mature fruitful spirit He wants us to be, and spirit is what we are.

We were not put here to be God's police to stop other people we deem sinners and to punish them for their sins. If we do, we may well get tangled in sin ourselves. But we can share the good news of Jesus Christ (If we truly know it), and it sure ain't promoting the Mosaic laws which cause sin to increase. We are meant to walk with God and fellowship with God and encourage one another and others to that they may be saved through finished work of Jesus on the cross, so that they become filled with the Holy Spirit by whom their very nature will be truly transformed to do the good we all are meant to do.




_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/25 14:39Profile
ArtB
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 424
New York

 Re:

Phillip, Your post above "Christinyou" referencing Gaebelein's Annotated Bible Hebrews 8:1 was rather good, I enjoyed reading it.


_________________
Arthur Biele

 2011/8/25 15:27Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1294
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Phillip:

It is interesting to me how no topic of scripture leaves another totally untouched. Heb. 8 and our discussion now enter the eschatalogical realm to a certain degree. I can only give you my opinion.

I don't believe that there is a special event in which "national" Israel turns to Christ. I do not know as much about eschatology as some might, but I think this is where I would differ from some pure dispensationalists. I do believe that in the hearts and minds of the Jewish people as a whole there is a blindness or a veil at the reading of the law even to today. I do believe there is coming a day when the blinders are removed and a great number of Jews turn to Christ as Messiah. In this event they will leave the old covenant and enter into the new. However we as believers comprised of both gentiles and Jews (There are a great number of Jewish believers) do now walk in the new covenant. The natural branch was severed and we were grafted in. Paul speaks of the fact that not all that are physical or national Jews are of Israel and many that are not physical Jews are counted as Israel through faith. There is coming a day when the natural branch will also once again be grafted in in a wholesale way. But I don't think Heb. 8 describes a yet to come event that will happen to one people with a national identity but rather an ongoing reality into which a wholesale number of Jews will one day also enter in. So as I see scripture the laws of God are now written on our hearts. I think the commentary of Heb. 9 and 10 would fix the fact that we are now under the new covenant of which the prophecy in Jeremiah and the commentary in Heb. 8 speak.

If I have misunderstood what you have said forgive me.

Blessings to you brother!


_________________
Travis

 2011/8/25 16:29Profile





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