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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A 15-Year Retrospective on the Lordship Controversy (by John MacArthur)

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 Re:


And After I said I was done with this thread - ArtB asked me a question.

Can you understand why he asked and why I may have felt obliged to answer, Old_Joe?

 2011/7/10 23:18









 Re:

When somebody says they are done with alcohol, do you suppose they go into the liquor store and look around at it? Most aren’t so foolish with that temptation. When someone says they are done with this thread, do you suppose they should even go back and look at it to tempt themselves into a lie? Had you not come back you would not have seen Art’s question, had you not seen his question you would not have been tempted to reply, had you not been tempted to reply you would not have replied. You broke your own word not when you replied but when you returned, just for a look.

Good thing your salvation is not dependent on this action though, because this is not that good fruit which you have been speaking of. Actually even just this makes you a liar which according to Rev 21:8 "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", puts you in a rather hot spot.

But the good news is that Christ died for the ungodly just such as yourself who sometimes have even tried to justify their lies, do you believe it?


OJ

 2011/7/10 23:49









 Re:

ArtB,

In the Sermon on the Mount Jesus was teaching his disciples Christianity.

It is not my position that Jesus said begone with the Old Covenant. (edit: He didn't abolish the Old Covenant when he was on earth). In my post I referred to the difference between the law of Moses and the moral law of God. Jesus indeed kept the law of Moses as a Jew made under the law (Galatians 4). However, his teachings (since he didn't need to repeat the Mosaic Law) were about the fulfillment of the moral Law (Matthew 5:17-18) which law is not made void through faith in him now, but rather established for both Jews and Gentiles.

"Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:29-31)

Your next question then is not relevant. Regarding the following one, Jesus did not teach the gentiles at all prior to his crucifixion, except for those gentiles which would have been in his audience and heard the same things the Jews heard. Why was he not sent to the gentiles? That was God's wisdom.

The New Covenant was indeed never established until Jesus died and the veil in the temple rent, and God's presence opened to all.. So why did Jesus teach New Covenant truth before the New Covenant was established? (I'd guess that would be your next question). God's wisdom again. How could his disciples ever be poor in spirit and long for the Holy Spirit without seeing and hearing it taught in Jesus? How can you know you're poor if you've never seen a rich man and his ways of being rich? Jesus was breaking them and teaching them their helplessness so they'd seek God extremely earnestly for the gift of the Holy Spirit- which they did, and were gloriously answered at Pentecost.

I made it a point that the Sermon on the Mount was to Jesus' disciples because the scripture points that out (Matthew 5:1) and I believe, as I hope you do, that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

I'm claiming Christianity existed in Jesus before he was crucified and that he called men to follow him. Just because that was not possible in the inner life until after Jesus was crucified only means what was stated above, that Jesus was teaching his disciples that they could not possibly do God's will without the power of the Holy Spirit. And I dare say that even now everyone who gets filled with the Holy Spirit (truly) goes through a wilderness of some length before they are convinced that they cannot do good on their own and desperate for Christ to transform them by His Spirit. Have you gone through such a period? If so, you know what I mean. There'd be no desperation in the upper room had the promise been given prematurely, in which case the Apostles would not have been humble men, but proud men with a gift they could not handle.

I answered your last question in my previous post. Please go back to it if you want to see my answer.

My questions for you:

If Jesus' teachings were only for Jews, not Christians, then why did he command his disciples (Jews) to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever he had commanded them in Matthew 28:18-20?

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

If the New Covenant is truly a unilateral covenant, as you've previously stated, then why are the following scriptures in the book that most emphasizes the abolition of the Old Covenant and establishment of the New, and repeatedly emphasizes Christ's finished work on the cross?

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation." (Hebrews 3:12-15)

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled. Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." (Hebrews 12:7-17)

Please answer these. Thank you.

 2011/7/11 2:25
gazzer
Member



Joined: 2011/4/30
Posts: 99


 Re:

hi joe ,,,,,no i think you will find mormans and jehova wittness dont give to missions that preach the scriptural gosple ,that acualy creats the new birth by the holy spirt ,,,you should know that they are heritcs ,like muslims ,so your wroung there

works of mercy ,if they are not done for the glory of god as a primary motavation,then filthy rag didped in humanism ,doesnt compare with good fruit, works of mercy done for christs sake ,,, dont dont compare the two you insult gods grace when you compare the rigeous acts of the saints to a filthy rag

the pharises wernt burdend by conviction of the holy spirit ,to pray ,,,,,,,,unless you can showscripture ,you are wrong there bro

simon the scorcery didnt do that he wanted to by apastolic power ,,i didnt say that did i ,,,,your wroung again bro

no your right i dont have enoungh fruit jesus is worthy of much much more ,,,,,but we arnt saved by fruit ,and thank god for that other wise hell would be my home

ididnt say i was saved by repentance so thed devil can mock it all he wants ,,,,it is evedence of my conversion ,,evedence dosnt save anyone ,and i was saved befor anything was realy evedent .i came to christ as i was he granted me repentence

again the pharise wernt burdened by the spirits conviction to fast like i am ,,they did it to be seen by men ,,you know that ,stop being funny lol

iwas a slave to sin,,,but the sone set me free and i am free in deed ,,thats repentance ,,the devil can mock this ,,but i trust in the power of christ ,and the blood he shead ,,,,,,,not saing im perfect ,,dont believe in that sinnless doctrine

my trasformed life gives me asurance ,,,,but you got it wrong again ,,i didnt say i base my asurance on this ,,chrirst is my rock he is my base ,but what he has done supanaturaly in my life is evedent and adds to my asurance

about bosting no idont think my performance is worth any thing,, it my eyes im a pityfull excuse for a christan compared to the light he has givern me ,,and if it was up to my works i would ge strait to hell

no when i say justafied i mean saved befor any fruit ,thats what paul is teaching ,,but fruit will become evedent in one who is truly justafied ,,for me it took a long wile

no unbelievers dont have god glorafing good works you cant compare fruits of the spirit ,to the good works of a carnal man ,,,,chalk and well cheese

filty rag that dishoners god and is based on idolarty

humans puting other humans on a petasil,and loving them wile dishonering god by dening him ,and comiting other sisns at the same time ,, its not the same as friuts of the spirit that glorafie god


fruit can take a long time to ripen in the new convert but he will have some at conversion,,,,,,,,tho it may be little ,and they will grow if he is a true convert

and then he will be to obedeant,he will then be seald with the baptisim of the holy spirit

jesus said IF you will obeay me i will send you another helper ,,,, there will be fruit if there is faith

faith with out fruitfull works is dead brother gary

 2011/7/12 6:18Profile









 Re:

Gazzer

There is a lot in your response that I would like to talk about, but I will limit it to this.

Quote:
it my eyes im a pityfull excuse for a christan compared to the light he has givern me



I would agree with that.

Quote:
my trasformed life gives me assurance



But then I would wonder how your pitiful excuse for a Christian life gives you assurance. What do you find in your pitiful Christian life that gives you any assurance? I mean there is just not any room for assurance in a pitiful Christian life, unless of course you don’t really believe you are pitiful.

Please enlarge upon this.

OJ

 2011/7/13 0:48
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1862
Kansas

 Re:

Quote:
"I mean there is just not any room for assurance in a pitiful Christian life, unless of course you don’t really believe you are pitiful."



And this point is exactly the problem I ran into, in light of the Holiness of Christ I was and am quite pathetic. It was only when I came into Christ being enveloped in His Holiness that I quickly could see my holiness vanish and my righteousness vanish not only vanishing but me casting them off as the filthy rags they are causing me to look to the One true Light Jesus Christ for my Holiness and Righteousness and in the end my Assurance. Where does this assurance come from though, Works I've done? No but the assurance is in Faith and Trust in Jesus Christ and HIS work on the Cross and that He is the Living God.

My Hope is built on nothing less that Jesus' blood and HIS righteousness.

Ever since I found Christ or ever since Christ found me and took me in like the lost dumb sheep that I am this song has become so precious a gift.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/7/13 3:58Profile
bowmyknees
Member



Joined: 2009/3/16
Posts: 90


 Re:

Quote Old Joe

"When somebody says they are done with alcohol, do you suppose they go into the liquor store and look around at it? Most aren’t so foolish with that temptation. When someone says they are done with this thread, do you suppose they should even go back and look at it to tempt themselves into a lie? Had you not come back you would not have seen Art’s question, had you not seen his question you would not have been tempted to reply, had you not been tempted to reply you would not have replied. You broke your own word not when you replied but when you returned, just for a look.

Good thing your salvation is not dependent on this action though, because this is not that good fruit which you have been speaking of. Actually even just this makes you a liar which according to Rev 21:8 "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", puts you in a rather hot spot.

But the good news is that Christ died for the ungodly just such as yourself who sometimes have even tried to justify their lies, do you believe it?"


This is unbelievable and mean spirited.
What is happening here on sermon index?

 2011/7/13 9:24Profile
Veronica226
Member



Joined: 2010/2/3
Posts: 144
Montana

 Re:

Quote:
Quote Old Joe: "When somebody says they are done with alcohol, do you suppose they go into the liquor store and look around at it? Most aren’t so foolish with that temptation. When someone says they are done with this thread, do you suppose they should even go back and look at it to tempt themselves into a lie? Had you not come back you would not have seen Art’s question, had you not seen his question you would not have been tempted to reply, had you not been tempted to reply you would not have replied. You broke your own word not when you replied but when you returned, just for a look. Good thing your salvation is not dependent on this action though, because this is not that good fruit which you have been speaking of. Actually even just this makes you a liar which according to Rev 21:8 "...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death", puts you in a rather hot spot. But the good news is that Christ died for the ungodly just such as yourself who sometimes have even tried to justify their lies, do you believe it?"

Quote bowmyknees: This is unbelievable and mean spirited. What is happening here on sermon index?



Agreed.


_________________
Veronica

 2011/7/13 18:47Profile









 Re:

None to worry BMK and Veronica, Christ died for the ungodly such as yourselves too! Isn't that great news?

BTW Gazzer, I am still looking for your answer.

OJ

 2011/7/14 0:49
carters
Member



Joined: 2011/5/24
Posts: 138
Australia

 Re:

Quote:
he who is born of god does not continiue in sin ,for gods seed is in him and he cannot continue in sin



Hi Gazzer,

I would like to give you an different perspective on your quote above.

I was radically born again when I was 14 years old, completely radical experience. Everything changed in me.

Due to many reasons, like not being around church fellowship (I was not allowed to go to church), and no proper solid teaching, no church, no foundational teaching, I slowly moved away from the Lord.

I spent the years of 15 yrs old - 20 years old, living in the world.
Was I born again? Absolutely...how do I know...

Well...everytime I was involved in the wild lifestyle (like clubbing and partying) I would keep hearing the Lord gently calling me back. I was desperately unhappy all the time because I knew I was not living for the Lord. I got involved in an "improper" relationship with a man 8 years older then myself. Every time we sinned, I would cry my heart out. Sob and sob and sob.

You can be born of God and still sin, but it will affect your life and your witness. It destroys the heart of God and their are awful consequences to bear. BUT I know that I was still saved, and I knew that God was calling me home..even in the midst of all my sinful living.

Sinning is not worth it. You pay a huge cost and you will be accountable for it. I spent years and years having to fix the past. Not to mention the number of people I have had to humbly go back to and apologise for the sinful behaviour I committed by sinning with them or by leading them on and playing emotional games, when I knew God had His one choice out there for me. I will be held accountable for the mistakes I made...as a Christian.

I have been reading through the biblical account of King David and no-one would ever deny that he was born of God. Yet David still sinned while born of God. There were major consequences because of his sin, but God forgave him, after repentance. Was David born of God before his sin? Yes.

If a solid Christian brother or sister had pulled me aside and questioned what I doing with my life (during the ages of 15-19 years old), I would have probably repented, due to the intense inner struggle that I felt and knew. I never had anyone in my life who did this.

If you know a brother or sister is of the Lord and you see them walking away from the Lord encourage them back, preach the scriptures to them, tell them of God's forgiveness and grace when they have repented. Give them your phone number and tell them to call whenever they need it. You just never know how God may use you.

Don't give up on those who have walked away from being under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. Pray for them and understand that you do not understand what is really going on in their heart. Please also understand that God forgives and welcomes His own back with open arms.

In Him only
Sherid


_________________
Mrs Carter

 2011/7/14 2:27Profile





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