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BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re:

No one has said that there are no such things as weather patterns and natural laws

What is being pointed out is that nothing happens apart from the will of God

If it makes you feel better, you can say that he only "allowed" it. Most unbelievers are not comforted by the problem of evil with the response - "oh, he didn't cause it, he simply allowed it"

Is not the Satan of Job under the rule and reign of God?

Is it a surprise to God when people die?

The kind of thinking that is being proffered here is the pathway to open Theism.


_________________
Benjamin Kreps

 2011/6/4 6:49Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Edited: No, I took my post down, even after just a short time more in prayer and speaking with my husband I realize the question I asked does not need answering here.

If I may just say though, I was reading in the NT and the one thing that stood out was the love they had for each other. The love in CHRIST for one another always seemed to be so evident and clear in their lives. That was one of the things that drew so many unsaved to JESUS and the church, they were different, their love for one another, their desire to be a servant stood out. In reading some of this thread, its clear that it has broken down to accusations and attacks, reading the posts over they do not seem to be about sharing, or edifying one another, they don't even seem to point anyone to JESUS, they just seem to be more about one person being right over the other???? My heart just kind of sinks because here we are again caught up in yet another endless debate. At least that is what I come away from this with. I wonder if we( meaning myself also) were all spending this time in prayer before GOD, crying out to HIM for those who are in rebellion to HIM to see their need for JESUS what a difference that would make.


Much love for you all here
God bless and praying for those here and those who have been so devastated by the storms. WE all need JESUS :)

God bless
maryjane

 2011/6/4 7:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is the very public accusation that states that God caused a tornado with a purpose of killing hundreds of people and destroying 75% of a town that causes me to urge some caution when voicing such things. If the person proclaiming it is wrong, then they are guilty of bearing false witness against the character of God.



BUT if the person is correct, that this tornado was under the direct control of God then what? If people deny that it was sent by God then what? Who then is bearing false witness against the character of God?

As stated in a different thread the "what God did" we can can be 100% certain of, but the exactly "why God did it" is all that is yet to be revealed/determined.


OJ

 2011/6/4 11:06









 Re:

Precisely Ben.


OJ

 2011/6/4 11:24
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Revelations 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.



Perfectly clear to me.


_________________
Janice

 2011/6/4 11:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:
BenK wrote:
No one has said that there are no such things as weather patterns and natural laws

What is being pointed out is that nothing happens apart from the will of God

If it makes you feel better, you can say that he only "allowed" it. Most unbelievers are not comforted by the problem of evil with the response - "oh, he didn't cause it, he simply allowed it"

Is not the Satan of Job under the rule and reign of God?

Is it a surprise to God when people die?

The kind of thinking that is being proffered here is the pathway to open Theism.



I posted that the 'physics' of weather is that it is in 'flux' and it's only limitedly predictable by man. That is 'the science' of weather. I've said that nature 'is not predictable', but it fell on deaf ears. I was a weather person in the military and I know how limited weather predicting is because of the very 'physics' that was raised.
Also, it is on the web that we have experienced a polar shift that has had an affect on things as well, making weather even the less 'predictable' besides the affects of the sun's activities. Weather is only limitedly predictable.

As far as Satan and Job and us saying "He allowed it" - that is exactly what GOD did with Job - He 'allowed' Satan to touch Job's possessions and then his flesh.

GOD is omniscient. His foreknowledge is unlimited. He knew about Joplin before creation. He Can't 'Not' Know Anything.
But with His Foreknowledge, there is Purpose for what He 'allows' and that purpose is always an attempt to get a message across to man. He is Good. He is Love and I feel sorry for anyone who cannot see that because of what happens in ANY Country through disasters ... that He is Still and always will be Good and though we may not have the full knowledge of 'why' these things are happening and always have happened, HE KNOWS why.

I 'think' the reason some have a problem with believing that GOD would have any part in any disaster is because they fear that it will rob GOD of His "goodness" in the eyes of the unsaved or 'suffering'.

If even Insurance companies call these "Acts of GOD" from as far back as history is recorded, it appears our generation desires to present themselves as more compassionate than GOD, because they can't reconcile that GOD has Good purposes for all that He either causes or allows. I prefer more often to say "allows" for multiple reasons.
Though I'm not open-theist, I do believe that if a hurricane is headed my way, that I can plead with Him to not be hit by it and there are times that He will answer - and if I am hit by the hurricane after praying to not be, I Know His reasons are always GOOD.
We are not omniscient... We do not see the souls and minds of every single human in any area that is hit by disasters. GOD knew every person, from before the foundation of the earth and every decision they'll make from day one until their last day. He is not only Good, but He is Love and we are to stay out of His business because even when it 'is' Judgment, it's not for us to oppose or question His Omniscience nor His Goodness and Love for mankind.


Out of 2000 that He knows will Never come to Him at all for salvation under Any circumstance - there may be 1 that will come to Him for Eternal Life 'because of' a disaster.

There's been ample Scripture posted to prove out that GOD controls or allows all "natural" phenomena, such as rain, sparrows falling, etc..

Again, I must say "allows" in many cases because 'man' now has technology to affect weather and earthquakes according to Secretary of Defense Cohen who's quote from Thomas.gov I posted last year and because many humans and animals are dying because of the actions of men as well, in the name of 'science'.


We pray for Salvation for All the unsaved around the world, [including our own loved ones] no matter the 'physical' cost or losts.

 2011/6/4 12:58
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi BenK...

Quote:

No one has said that there are no such things as weather patterns and natural laws



Actually, the argument was raised in the previous Joplin tornado thread that there are no such things as weather patterns or laws of nature.

Quote:

What is being pointed out is that nothing happens apart from the will of God

If it makes you feel better, you can say that he only "allowed" it. Most unbelievers are not comforted by the problem of evil with the response - "oh, he didn't cause it, he simply allowed it"

Is not the Satan of Job under the rule and reign of God?

Is it a surprise to God when people die?



I don't think that this notion was ever in dispute. I think that we all agree that God knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). We all agree that God is omnipotent and can do anything -- and can destroy the world in an instant if He so chooses (even though we know from His Word that He won't do this until AFTER the Millennial reign of Christ). We also know that God intervenes at our prayers. Scripture is filled with examples of men who prayed and God moved on their behalf -- often thwarting death, disaster, military conquest or even judgment. None of that is in dispute.

The caution that I urged was in regard to the notion that God superseded the typical order of weather and created a tornado as a judgment upon the town of Joplin, Missouri (or the United States) and killed hundreds of people and destroyed 75% of the town.

It was argued that there is NO SUCH THING as "weather patterns" or "laws of nature." They argued that since God is in control of all things, then He presently created this tornado -- and all 1,200 tornadoes that average each year in the United States -- for a purpose of JUDGMENT. It was stated that God killed these people, some as a possible act of "wrath" and some as a possible act of "mercy." It was even stated that God, because of His active control of everything, killed David Wilkerson -- possibly because he was a "lawbreaker" because he wasn't wearing a seatbelt when his body was recovered.

It is with those things that I urged caution.

That is stretching much further than the notion that God is omnipotent and that nothing operates outside of His will and control. Of course, such an open-ended suggestion would imply that all evil is controlled by God. This suggestion also implies that Satan is CONTROLLED by God -- not simply by limitations -- but by a motivation that is guided by God.

One of the people in the other Joplin thread accused God of afflicting Job -- even expressing that it was one of the things that Job's friends actually "got right." Yet the Scriptures are clear that God had protected Job through a special hedge of protection (Job 1:9-10). If God was actively controlling all things -- including Satan -- then why would God even need to offer a hedge of protection to begin with?

Satan claimed that Job was serving God because of God's blessings and protection. Satan then implied that if God removed that protection and struck Job, that Job would curse God (Job 1:9-11). Now, God immediately made it clear that He would not actively do this. God allowed Satan to strike out against Job by placing everything in Satan's hands, but instructed Satan to refrain from touching Job himself (Job 1:12). So Satan acts against Job -- even using a "wind." Later, Satan returns and argues that Job would curse God if he was personally afflicted (Job 2:4-5). God then allowed Satan to afflict Job -- but not to kill him (Job 2:6). So, Satan struck Job with painful boils upon flesh (Job 2:7-8).

Do you see the difference here? God was not actively afflicting Job. The devil did that. Yes, Satan had the permission of God to act against Job, but it was not God who was creating the death and destruction.

Yet, Job's friends thought it was an act of God. I pointed out some of the passages previously from Job chapters 3-37, but Job's three friends were implying that God was the one who was afflicting Job...and it was an act of judgment...and they were guessing the underlying reasons for what they assumed were acts of judgment.

It is this type of supposition that sounds an awfully lot like those who claim that God supernaturally created a tornado and purposely killed hundreds of people in the town (including believers and children) and that it was an act of judgment (even implying that it was both as acts of wrath and mercy). When I read those comments, and then read Job chapters 3-37, I am struck by the similarity of the accusations.

God rebuked Job for listening to those "wise guys" who thought themselves "knowing" enough to make accusations about both God and Job. God said that they literally "darkeneth counsel with words without knowledge" (Job 38:2) and God said that Job's friends "have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath" (Job 42:7). Job repented and admitted that he spoke of things that he did not truly understand and that were "too wonderful" for him (Job 42:3) -- and this coming from a man who was considered by God to be "perfect and upright" (Job 1:8).

This is why I am urging caution. I wouldn't urge caution about saying that God is the ultimate overseer of the world. I wouldn't urge caution about God knowing the end from the beginning or His ability to intervene at any time.

Rather, I urged caution because men publicly proclaimed that there is no "order" or "nature" to this world that was designed by God...that God created the tornado...that God created the tornado as an act of judgment...that God killed people as an act of wrath and/or mercy...and that God even pours out deadly judgment on people like David Wilkerson because he may not have been wearing a seatbelt.

I hope that you can see the difference in that.

Quote:

The kind of thinking that is being proffered here is the pathway to open Theism.



Urging caution before people accuse God of actively creating a tornado as an act of judgment in Joplin, Missouri in order to kill hundreds of people and destroy 75% of the town is NOT a pathway to open Theism, deism or another "ism." :-) It is simply a word of caution.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/4 13:34Profile
BenK
Member



Joined: 2006/12/17
Posts: 49
Harrisburg PA

 Re:

"Though I'm not open-theist, I do believe that if a hurricane is headed my way, that I can plead with Him to not be hit by it and there are times that He will answer - and if I am hit by the hurricane after praying to not be, I Know His reasons are always GOOD."

JIG - I don't disagree with you at all. We aren't to be fatalists. He reigns and rules and also answers prayer according to the counsel of his will.

"I know his reasons are always GOOD" is gold!


_________________
Benjamin Kreps

 2011/6/4 13:37Profile









 Re:


I need to add a fact about "Science", which I'm tiring of hearing about.

"Science" as I mentioned above has been a leading cause of the bees, birds, fish and people dying around the globe.

Pesticides, chemicals of every sort in the environment, in products of all sorts, such as food, GM foods, the list is literally endless of what man in the name of 'science' is doing to His Creation.
Nuclear fall-out of any kind can also affect weather.
Opening levees and major moves such as that, even what goes on at these laboratories and experimental places like CERN affect GOD's pure creation and weather events.
"Fracking for oil" can cause earth tremors or earthquakes.
Radiation escaping from certain places, that man has created. War's affects as well.
To say that we have weather "patterns" is rediculous at this point in time because of all of these "scientific" reasons alone - nonetheless what The Word says about Him controlling & allowing things.

There is so much more about what "science" has done to affect "nature" that one could go on all day about the numberless ways that they're "destroying the earth", in small to very dramatic ways. The food supply, the weather, the health of the majority of humans and animals and plant life, polluting the oceans, etc - the list is endless and so GOD needs to be minded when He writes in Revelation 11:18 that, He is Returning "to destroy those who are destroying the earth".

Sorry, but I just needed to finish that thought about 'science' from my last post and spit out that Very Important Verse.

GOD "allows" these destroyers to go just so far when He takes His Hand of protection off the earth in the last days and gives the earth over to man's desire to be under Satan's rule and He times His Return to save the earth, "lest no flesh will survive" by the actions of these destroyers in the name of 'science' and "global de-population", as they've planned all along.

That is why I get moved to a sort of anger, when I hear anyone praising "science" when it's Godless men's science that plays the major role in what is happening now and will happen, that He will finally come to deal with in Rev 11:18.


2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise [to Return], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that Any should perish, but that All should come to repentance.

 2011/6/4 13:55
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Jesus-is-God,

Quote:

I posted that the 'physics' of weather is that it is in 'flux' and it's only limitedly predictable by man. That is 'the science' of weather. I've said that nature 'is not predictable', but it fell on deaf ears. I was a weather person in the military and I know how limited weather predicting is because of the very 'physics' that was raised.



I hope that I made it clear that I believe that there is a world of difference between God actively causing something or God simply allowing it to happen.

I raised the issue about weather patterns, weather phenomenon and the physical laws of nature (which I conclude that God designed at the creation of this world) because this tornado appears to be a product of it.

Weather on the earth is observed constantly through satellites. A weatherman can warn about a "cold front" or pending thunderstorms over a week in advance. This is what happened in Joplin. Several days prior, the weather service predicted that a storm would be coming...and that there was potential for violent thunderstorms and possible tornadic activity. As a result, prior to the tornado forming, the National Weather Service issued tornado watches for Joplin. A tornado warning was sounded even before the tornado touched down. These weren't simplistic guesses. These watches, warnings and predictions came from learned men who understand weather patterns enough to offer a forecast and advisement.

A few days ago, I mentioned that the weather service predicted that we would have rain on Saturday with a high of around 65. Guess what? It is 10:38 AM on Saturday and it is raining and the temperature is currently 57 degrees. The weather report from a few days ago was not a "guess." It was an approximation based upon the weather service's understanding of weather in terms of the order of nature. The weather service is predicting that this weather pattern will begin to dissipate and that we will have sunny skies and a high of about 70 degree by Tuesday. I will keep you posted if they are correct. :-)

Scientists know to a large extent how tornadoes are formed. I explained this (in a nutshell) in the Joplin tornado thread. During the Spring (typically), northerns cold air masses surge into southerly warm air masses and violent things happen (including tornadoes).

I stated that this tornado was an observed product of that phenomenon. To be blunt, I was surprised that a few people would have been offended or upset at such a statement.

Still, my greater concern was not with the extent that weather, weather patterns, the laws of nature, the laws of physics and chemistry (etc...) play in this Earth. Rather, it was that men suggested that this tornado was formed OUTSIDE of weather -- and as a specific act of judgment upon a town. There were all sorts of accusatory implications and suggestions about WHY God would pour out judgment upon the town. It was with this type of public proclamations that I urged caution.

I do hope that makes a little more sense. I also hope that people do not misunderstand and continue to accuse me of embracing deism or a path to open theism. It was simply a word of caution about proclaiming something that they suppose themselves to "know" that may be "too wonderful" for them in the first place.

The Lord bless you.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/4 13:55Profile





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