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 Re:

Quote:
Some individuals are literally pointing the finger at God for the deaths and destruction due to one tornado (out of an average of 1,200 per year in this country) and insinuating an underlying motivation of judgment and wrath.



Part A yes (including all 1200 and which locations they are continually directed at), part B possibly, yet not necessarily on those who died or lost things, possibly the biggest judgment may be on those who refuse to see God working in these situtations, with God allowing them to fill up their cup of iniquity to the full in denying His very person. But they will keep praying for their stuff....

We are on the front end of God's wrath on mankind, and He is just spending a little time in the bullpen.

Like it or not, God is in charge (very specifically in the details of the elements) or He is not God.


OJ

 2011/6/3 20:40









 Re:

Quote:
Would you care to provide examples of where God poured out His wrath upon HIS OWN PEOPLE? I would especially like to see examples under this New Covenant that God made with us -- especially since the Word says that God has been "storing up" His wrath (Romans 2:5).


Indeed, God's wrath is reserved for His enemies.

What makes you think that dying in a tornado or losing your stuff is God's wrath? These things are nothing compared to His wrath. When people start eating their own children in this land because of the famine that God will be sending, that will be getting closer to His wrath, because it is things like that which gnaw on the soul.

Losing stuff is merely a chastisement (Heb 12); losing life for a Christian just means their usefulness in His kingdom has expired; losing the life of a loved one is just a reminder that this world is temporary. Deism has you confounded, look higher than what you can understand....


OJ

 2011/6/3 20:48
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re:

rdg,

It is ok...don't get in too big of a wad over the turn of this discussion.

Seems to me the biggest concern should be that if and/or when something like this were to happen to me,to my community that our response should be of humble submission to God, one that says, "God what do you want me to learn through this calamity?" And He will tell you. He may convict you of a hidden sin you did not want to face up to, or, he just may want to use you as an example to someone else that you will not curse God because He allowed this to happen. We do not always know why He allows these calamities but we need to be humble and willing to learn from it.

Take care rdg....males love to decipher the fine points of theology but whatever they decide will not change who God is, not that these discussions are not important. It is just that we need to be primarily concerned that our responses to these things are holy.

God bless..

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/6/3 22:02Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Old_Joe,

Quote:

possibly the biggest judgment may be on those who refuse to see God working in these situtations, with God allowing them to fill up their cup of iniquity to the full in denying His very person. But they will keep praying for their stuff....



Just what are you insinuating here, Old Joe?

Are you implying that those of us who don't believe that God supernaturally creates ALL 1200 tornadoes per year and kills scores of people each year (for as long as records have been kept) are guilty of...

A.) "Refusing" to see God work;
B.) "Denying His very person;
C.) "Filling" up a "cup of iniquity;"
D.) Selfishly "pray for stuff"
-and-
E.) Awaiting the "biggest" judgment -- bigger than the killing and destruction from 1,200 tornadoes that you argue that God created?

First of all, please stop making such insinuations about people who you simply disagree with. It is wrong for you to try and vilify those of us who disagree with your opinion about this cause or origin of this tornado or those of us who are simply urging caution about the accusation that you are making toward the character of God.

Secondly, we all know that God's wrath will come on mankind as recorded in the Book of Revelation. Right or wrong, it is merely an assumption on your part that this is the "front end" of the Great Tribulation or that it equates to God spending time in the metaphoric "bullpen." After all, God is omnipotent and doesn't need to "warm up." Rather, the "birth pains" as described in Matthew 24 will come as the Earth itself agonizes for the coming judgment.

There have been many times where people attributed dates or events to the beginning of judgment day. In 1833, a young Abraham Lincoln was awakened during a particularly eventful Leonid meteor shower by a preacher who proclaimed that Judgment Day was at hand. However, if we are incorrect at attributing such specific events to a time table or set of judgment of God, then we are just as guilty of false prophecy as Harold Camping (no matter how sincere we are...or how much we think that we "know" that the Scriptures say on the matter).

Quote:

Like it or not, God is in charge (very specifically in the details of the elements) or He is not God.



No one has argued that God is not in charge of the elements. In fact, I have stated repeatedly that God OVERSEES all things -- including the order of this world that He created. That order of design is apparent in the world around us -- including the fact that men who have studied that order were able to create the very computer that you are using and harness the electricity needed to power it.

The question, however, is whether or not God purposely created a tornado to destroy 75% of a town and kill hundreds of people. At best, such an accusation is speculation. I simply caution those who would make such an accusation against God to consider whether or not they are guilty of the very thing that Job's friends did when they accused God of having commenced the events around Job's hardships or attempt to guess the causes and motivations to do so.

Quote:

What makes you think that dying in a tornado or losing your stuff is God's wrath? These things are nothing compared to His wrath. When people start eating their own children in this land because of the famine that God will be sending, that will be getting closer to His wrath, because it is things like that which gnaw on the soul.



I never said as much. However, you somehow suppose yourself perceptive enough to KNOW that God created this tornado to destroy a town and kill hundreds of people -- babies, children and adults, believers and unbelievers alike.

By the way, I have no doubt that the wrath of God is coming upon this world. It will be a time unlike any other -- and that wrath will make the Joplin tornado seem like a Sunday School picnic. However, I no more trust your estimation about when, where and how that wrath will come than I would trust Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, the many conspiracy-laden prophecy websites or any other self-supposed expert of eschatology. I already know that it will bad enough...and the importance of placing our faith in Christ Jesus our Lord no matter what comes.

Still, it is merely an assumption -- right or wrong -- to attribute this single tornado as an act of judgment by God upon this town. In my opinion (just to distinguish), this is no different than those ignorant members from Westboro Baptist Church who constantly parade down the street proclaiming that every death or tragedy is the result of the judgment of God upon that person (or America).

Quote:

Losing stuff is merely a chastisement (Heb 12) losing life for a Christian just means their usefulness in His kingdom has expired; losing the life of a loved one is just a reminder that this world is temporary.



According to Job 1:12 and Job 2:6, it can also be the result of Satan. In other events (like the collapse of the Tower of Siloam in Luke 13:1-9), it just happens. In fact, the principle behind the Tower of Siloam is clear when Jesus said that God is patient in dispensing judgment on unfruitful vines.

Now, it is undeniable that the death of believers has lost its sting. This is because we have a blessed hope in our Lord and Savior. We don't even need the death of a loved one to realize how temporary this life is. If we lived to be 120-years old, it is just a drop in the bucket when compared with Eternity. I don't need my wife to die to make me realize this...because I already know it so well. We aren't even promised to live until tomorrow. However, it is another thing to attribute each and every death -- or the specific deaths of a baby during a tornado -- to the judgment of God.

It is one thing to say that God knew it would happen. It is another thing to say that God allowed it to happen. It is an entirely different thing to say that God designed it to happen and carried out the killing Himself. Indeed, I urge caution that we don't fall under the same sins as Job's friends and accuse God of calamity or guess his motives for it.

Quote:


Deism has you confounded, look higher than what you can understand....



Joe, I have already asked you to refrain from making such ridiculous and erroneous statements like this. They are untrue and very uncalled for. I ask you again to stop making statements like this.


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Christopher

 2011/6/3 22:28Profile
rainydaygirl
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Joined: 2008/10/27
Posts: 742


 Re:

Quote:
It is ok...don't get in too big of a wad over the turn of this discussion.



__

I should not have posted to this thread, my bad. I apologies for any misunderstand on my part.

I think I am going to go spend some time in prayer...

rdg

 2011/6/3 22:34Profile









 Re:


Quote:
I never said as much. However, you somehow suppose yourself perceptive enough to KNOW that God created this tornado to destroy a town and kill hundreds of people -- babies, children and adults, believers and unbelievers alike.



And that is the beauty of just trusting the word of God without trying to make excuses for it. God says he does this kind of stuff all the time, and He also says He changes not, so that in itself ought cause you to be on your toes, and be thankful that it didn't come for you.

Who knows what next week might bring???

BTW, is there an F) for all of the above. ;-)


OJ

 2011/6/4 1:04









 Re:

Quote:
It is wrong for you to try and vilify those of us who disagree with your opinion about this cause or origin of this tornado or those of us who are simply urging caution about the accusation that you are making toward the character of God.



Are you ABSOLUTELY certain about this?


OJ

 2011/6/4 1:07
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Quote:

Are you ABSOLUTELY certain about this?



Since I have always believed in "absolutes" (and have always said as much), why wouldn't I be certain about the attitude that you are conveying toward those who disagree with your opinions?

BTW, there is a real difference between incorrectly stating a sectarian opinion as an "absolute" and the Truth that is irrefutable from Scripture.

There is a world of difference between proclaiming God as a killer (and even guessing His motives) in regard to the recent tornado in Joplin, Missouri and proclaiming something that is exceedingly clear from the Word of God as an indisputable truth. The fact that there are God-fearing believers who disagree with you (or the finality of your proclamations) is a demonstration that what you are presenting is an opinion (rather than fact) and that it is possible that said opinion may be incorrect.


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Christopher

 2011/6/4 1:56Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Old Joe,

Quote:

And that is the beauty of just trusting the word of God without trying to make excuses for it. God says he does this kind of stuff all the time, and He also says He changes not, so that in itself ought cause you to be on your toes, and be thankful that it didn't come for you.



The problem with this statement and mindset is that it doesn't necessarily reflect that you are "trusting the Word of God" but rather your own understanding of the Word of God.

It is like the two churches across town who constantly bicker of doctrinal peculiarities -- but both are "certain" that they "know" the "truth" as they read God's Word. In reality, the people who attend those churches and argue vigorously with one another have simply reached different conclusions about the meaning of certain passages in God's Word. Yet they will both proclaim their "knowledge" and that the other church is wrong. Sometimes, a third (and fourth, fifth, sixth, etc...) church will enter the discussion and declare the first two "fundamentally flawed" (or worse).

The Scriptural references that you cited do not lead me to assume that there is no designed order to this world (such as weather or physics), or that God supernaturally created this tornado, or that God created said tornado for the purpose of dispensing judgment. Yet, many of us read those same passages and, when weighed with other passages, just do not arrive to the conclusion that has been presented. This is not only true of the Joplin tornado, or of the 1,200 tornadoes that average each year, but of EVERYTHING.

The way that some write, you would expect that they do not believe in accidents. After all, it was implied that David Wilkerson was killed by God for "law breaking." Someone was so "certain" of their "knowledge" of both God and Scripture that they played judge and jury in regard to Brother Wilkerson's recent death -- not only guessing that the cause of death was God's doing...but even making an assumption about the reason that God killed him ("lawbreaking"). If that doesn't sound like the "wisdom" from one of Job's friends, I don't know what would!

When I was a freshman in college, a fellow student died in a car crash. He had fallen asleep at the wheel when returning to school late one Sunday evening. When someone asked to pray for his family at one of our Bible studies, one of the guys from the church objected to the term "traffic accident," because he argued that God caused the crash. "God controls EVERYTHING," he said.

This, of course, didn't win him too many friends. In fact, a visitor to the Bible study commented afterward about how horrible that this "no accident" guy made God out to be. It was almost as if the guy was saying that God caused the 18-year old to stay up late, fall asleep at the wheel and wreck his car. It is as if the world is all one gigantic script written by God in which we live in a world where there is no free will...no order...no design...no laws of nature. Rather, God is just a universal script writer who actively controls every aspect of every man, woman, child, animal, wind, rain, plant, and every other object in the entire universe AT EVERY SINGLE MOMENT.

Weather patterns? Nonsense -- because God must obviously control the weather without any sort of order whatsoever. He just constantly decides to do what He wants when He wants -- and those weekday weather forecasts are just silly guesses that are strangely accurate.

Electricity? Nonsense -- because there are no forces of nature or physics. Your computer, CD player, lights, etc... -- it works because God controls it. So, it will work without being plugged in because God makes it so. In fact, you don't even need a computer to search the internet, because those "laws" do not exist -- and you can access the internet from any rock.

Law of Gravity? Nonsense -- because there is no order to such a thing and it is just God's active "control" at all times that makes people and objects fall to the Earth (or comets to crash into Jupiter).

Rotation of the Earth? Nonsense! It just looks like it is spinning on its access each 24 hours and revolving around the Sun every 365.25 days.

Health? Who cares? Since there is no order to biology, then I have nothing to worry about when I eat. I should be able to eat raw chicken, raw beef and anything that I want! I don't need to eat healthy foods or exercise, because laws of nutrition and health aren't real. Come to think of it, I don't need to plant my garden or vegetables "in season" because God is the one who controls them and makes them grow, right? I don't need fertilizer...or even dirt!

Bouyancy? Nonsense? Even if a person can't swim, they should be able to walk on water. After all, Jesus and Peter did (even though they took boats most of the time). So, walking on water is just as miraculous as a boat floating -- because God controls it all anyway and there are no laws of physics or chemistry anyway, right? And, if a person sinks underwater, the natural order for human biology that states that a person needs oxygen to the brain and heart aren't real...because God controls those things. So, a person should be able to stay under water for a few hours without breathing, right? After all, God controls the oxygen anyway...and the fact that someone is under water shouldn't affect that control at all.

I guess that I could go on and on. Do you see how silly it sounds when someone implies that there is no set order to this world that God designed? Rather, this entire world operates according to order -- the order that God designed.

It is the understanding of that specific order (and laws) that God designed that allowed men to land on the Moon, build spacecraft that landed on Mars, explore the solar system, build telescopes, understand the movement of celestial bodies, understand how to raise crops efficiently (in their ordered SEASONS), and even how certain foods are healthier than others. It is the understanding of that order that caused men to figure out how to design and build automobiles, roads, ships, telephones, cellular phones, compact disks, the MP3 files containing voices of men who have long since died, medicine for the sick, etc...

It is also the understanding of this designed order that caused weathermen to forecast bad weather days before the tornado, and issue tornado warnings BEFORE any tornado had actually formed in Joplin -- because the satellite imagery and understanding that physical atmospheric conditions were ripe for such phenomenon.

Is it possible that God created this world and set it in order while He oversees it simultaneously? Now, before you accuse me of fulfilling some Wikipedia definition of "deism" (again), please understand that I certainly believe that God has infinite power and control over this world -- as long as it doesn't violate His character, attributes, promises and covenant with us. Yes, He is a God of justice...and His wrath is great.

However, the question in all of this is whether or not God was the culprit behind the Joplin tornado.

Like I said before, Satan was the one who afflicted Job. Did God control the disasters? Well, that would have put God under the control of Satan (Job 1:12). So, if God controls everything, why did God (prior to Job's affliction) bother to place a hedge around Job for protection? To protect Job from...God Himself? Moreover, it was Satan who afflicted Job (but only after Satan had permission). Satan was given a stipulation from God to avoid harming Job himself and, later, to spare Job's life.

Yet, Job's friends assumed that it was God who struck Job (Job 4:7-9). They stipulated that God controls all things, so He must have been behind Job's afflictions (5:1-17). They assumed that Job had earned God's correction and judgment (Job 5:17-19; Job 8:1-4, etc...). They tried to cause Job to blame God for the trials that he faced, and ascertain the reasons why God caused those things (Job 20, 22, 25). Yet, in reality, it was Satan who had afflicted Job all along (Job 1:12, 2:6-7). The Lord confronted Job about "words without knowledge" (Job 38:2) that Job's friends had spoken (Job 42:7).

When I read some of the things certain people say about the Joplin tornado, any other disaster or tragedy, or even from the 1833 Leonid meteor shower -- as a specific "judgment" from God -- I just wonder if they are venturing into the same suppositions as Job's friends. They don't realize that they were saying things that they thought that they "knew" but were without knowledge. They were speaking of things "too wonderful" for them.

That is why I have to wonder why some feel confident enough to make such a proclamation. Some people made similar proclamations about 9/11. Some did it each time a major earthquake hit. Others did it a several years ago with Hurricane Katrina. Some even proclaimed that it was the beginning of the period of Great Tribulation...and the beginning of the Wrath of God! I knew a guy who thought that 9/11 was the first day of the Tribulation and set a 2008 date for the Second Coming! Like Harold Camping, he was so confident in his "knowledge" that he proclaimed it publicly. But, like Camping, he was wrong (and was unwittingly guilty of lying).

This is part of the caution that I urge. Yes, Jesus is coming. Yes, the wrath of God is coming. Yes, it will be a terrible time -- worse than any other time in history. And, yes, God has the ultimate controlling oversight over the entire universe -- as long as it doesn't violate His character, plan or New Covenant. Still, this is all in addition to the point.

It is the very public accusation that states that God caused a tornado with a purpose of killing hundreds of people and destroying 75% of a town that causes me to urge some caution when voicing such things. If the person proclaiming it is wrong, then they are guilty of bearing false witness against the character of God.

Quote:

BTW, is there an F) for all of the above. ;-)



So, you really think that those of us who disagree with your opinion about the responsibility and cause of this tornado are guilty of A.) "Refusing" to see God work; B.) "Denying His very person; C.) "Filling" up a "cup of iniquity;"
D.) Selfishly "pray for stuff" -and- E.) Awaiting the "biggest" judgment -- bigger than the killing and destruction from 1,200 tornadoes that you argue that God created?

Ouch. Of course, I will take those accusations with a grain of salt each time I enter boldly before His throne of grace.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2011/6/4 2:53Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re:

rdg wrote:

Quote:
I should not have posted to this thread, my bad. I apologies for any misunderstand on my part.



Relax. It is OK. Don't allow differences of opinion destroy your appreciation for those you differ with...and this is not a sin issue but a perception one. The biggest thing, IMHO, is that if you ever get caught in a storm that your reactions will honor God. This is what is really important.

I said in the lead post that I went to Tuscaloosa. Well...on the way home I got sleepy so I stopped at a small antique shop to walk around and wake up. While there the owner wanted to talk about this tornado, she having been a victim years ago. Then she asked if I did not believe that one would have to suffer a nervous breakdown after going through this? Never was asked this question before...But I said, "No. You're not going anywhere with a nervous breakdown. You just ask God to help you and he will..." She said nothing. See what I mean?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2011/6/4 6:17Profile





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