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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4651


 Re:

Quote:
Obedience time after time sounds like perpetual obedience which we know is not possible in this life. To be in the book of life one has to TRUST the Author, even with the smallest of trust. Obedience then grows as trust grows.



I agree with your statement in part. For we are given many testimonies in Scripture where those who are justified and live by faith, fail at times to remain obedient. With that said, I do not believe Scripture teaches that trust comes before obedience. I believe in fact trust is grown in those who continually call on the name of the Lord to deliver them from the corruption of this life. Faith to faith living proves to us that the Lord is faithful to deliver us from our current circumstances.

The testimony of Abraham's life is a clear illustration of this precept. After years of following the Lord we have this insight into the depth of trust that the Lord had instilled in Abraham...


Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],

Hbr 11:18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," [fn]

Hbr 11:19 concluding that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

Abraham was tested by the Lord. Abraham, who received the promises, was able to "conclude" that God was able to raise Isaac up.

What does the word "conclude" suggest about Abraham's understanding and knowledge of the Lord?


_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

 2011/6/18 12:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I do not believe Scripture teaches that trust comes before obedience. I believe in fact trust is grown in those who continually call on the name of the Lord to deliver them from the corruption of this life.



Who calls on someone they do not trust to deliver them?

While it is true that many obey (in the loosest sense of that word) who do not trust, obedience before trust is religion, whereas trust before obedience is salvation.

True obedience can ONLY come in trust!


OJ

 2011/6/18 12:23









 Re:

Quote:
What does the word "conclude" suggest about Abraham's understanding and knowledge of the Lord?



Abraham's trust GREW by obedience, but was not PRODUCED by obedience. Trust is a separate issue from obedience which is why "the just shall live by faith". The unjust are dead without faith, the just are made alive (brought into communion with God) by faith, not by obedience. The two are separate.


OJ

 2011/6/18 12:33









 Re: For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works o

rookie, I think you're a little bit out of balance just quoting scriptures like that by the thousands.

"Trust is choosing to not persist in violating the known will of God."

Quote is from a message by Dudley Hall at a meeting in Southlake, TX a few weeks ago.

Here are all my "Cliff Notes" from this message he gave to a group of about 20 men:

The highest level of living is living in trust.

Disobedience comes out of distrust.

Religion says lets correct the disobedience.

Satan says that life at its best is discovered outside of obedience.

So most of our confusion comes from trying to fix our disobedience without addressing our distrust.

We know that if we obey we get blessed. We know that. We just don’t know how to obey.

God will do whatever is necessary to give us a trusting heart.

We think if I obey I get blessed--with material things. But God says your blessed life is one of trusting--not just having.

We must say, "God I want a trusting heart--whatever it takes."

Trust is choosing to not persist in violating the known will of God.

Obedience is not optional. Jesus is doing it for me, and the Holy Spirit is doing it in me, and all I can do is trust.




 2011/6/18 16:34
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4651


 Re:

Quote:
True obedience can ONLY come in trust!





Psa 119:65 TETH. You have dealt well with Your servant, O LORD, according to Your word.

Psa 119:66 Teach me good judgment and knowledge, For I believe Your commandments.

Psa 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word.

Psa 119:71 [It is] good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes.

Psa 119:75 I know, O LORD, that Your judgments [are] right, And [that] in faithfulness You have afflicted me.



Did this man learn to trust first or did the Lord teach him to obey first?


_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

 2011/6/18 21:28Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4651


 Re:

Quote:
We know that if we obey we get blessed. We know that. We just don’t know how to obey.




This is partly true. As Paul wrote...


Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find.


Then Paul points to Christ...


Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, [fn] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.


This thread is about the power of the Holy Spirit who counsels us in the ways of righteousness. Only by the Spirit can man know the mind of Christ. For Paul writes of the carnal mind...


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The work of the Holy Spirit teaches us not to trust in our carnal mind, but to look unto Christ who is the light of life.


_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

 2011/6/18 21:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Did this man learn to trust first or did the Lord teach him to obey first?



This man be David, saved since his youth. The words written were written after his youth. He trusted first, then fell, then learned better how to obey.


OJ

 2011/6/19 13:58
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4651


 Re:

Quote:
This man be David, saved since his youth. The words written were written after his youth. He trusted first, then fell, then learned better how to obey.




I have never seen a copy of the Scriptures that declare that the writer of Psalm 119 is David.


Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." [fn]

According to Scripture: Does God continue to reveal His righteousness to those who choose not to live "faith to faith"?


_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

 2011/6/19 20:45Profile









 Re:


Quote:
I have never seen a copy of the Scriptures that declare that the writer of Psalm 119 is David.



True enough, but reasonable men such as Matthew Henry fear not to attribute the psalm to him, "It seems to me to be a collection of David's pious and devout ejaculations", but granted the authorship need not be the issue.

Quote:
According to Scripture: Does God continue to reveal His righteousness to those who choose not to live "faith to faith"?



This question is somewhat skewed, but yes God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith (IE further revelation to steps of faith), yet faith is present in the beginning.

Who obeyed something that they did not trust to be true? Simon the sorcerer did, likewise so did Judas, and Cain, and a whole host of others. But who obeyed something that they trusted to be true? Joshua, Moses, Abraham, Paul, John, Peter etc.

Do you not see a common theme?


OJ

 2011/6/19 23:31
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4651


 Re:

Quote:
"It seems to me to be a collection of David's pious and devout ejaculations"



As a side thought...

Job 5:17 "Behold, happy [is] the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.


Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.


Pro 3:11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction;
Pro 3:12 For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son [in whom] he delights.
Pro 3:13 Happy [is] the man [who] finds wisdom, And the man [who] gains understanding;


Who would you attribute these thoughts to?


_________________
Jer 15:16 Your words were found, and I ate them, And Your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart; For I am called by Your name, O LORD God of hosts.

 2011/6/20 10:25Profile





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