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 Re: All Israel will be saved - Understanding Romans 9-11

Dear Joe,

I'm sure that you will continue to believe what you feel is the truest interpretation of scripture. I will do the same. Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a CHILD is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace.

 2011/5/19 20:12



Well, before you settle in, I recommend you read this.

ETA And conversely thise one the shows not only Jesus is Jehovah, but that Jehovah is Jesus.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have an active ministry on every page of the word of God. The Son was not absent nor hidden for the first four thousand years and then "voila", He appears on the scene. All things have always come 'from' the Father, 'through' the Son, 'by' the Holy Spirit.

Anywhere you read "the word of the Lord" or some other such thing, it is the Son of God bringing it forth.

You will read the Bible very differently once you receive this. This is what it truly means to receive Christ as LORD.


 2011/5/19 20:30

 Re: All Israel will be saved - Understanding Romans 9-11

Hi Joe,

This is what Strong's says about 'theos':

New Testament Greek Definition:
2316 theos {theh'-os}
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the
supreme Divinity; TDNT - 3:65,322; n m
AV - God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5; 1343
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in
any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

Young's makes no distinction, implying that whole Godhead is intended - the 'object of worship'.

 2011/5/20 8:16


Indeed it does.

Now let's look at it

2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity

So, has any man seen God the Father, John 5:37, 6:46 and others plainly state no. So that cannot be what John 1:18 is referring to. Especially since the second half declares who has been made known by whom.

Has any man seen God the Son, very plainly yes He has been seen of most witnesses in the Bible. If you use John 1:18 to apply to the whole Godhead, you must deny the Deity of Christ to do so.

Has any man seen God the Holy Spirit, no at most He has been heard as a wind.

Which person of the Trinity are you left with that has been seen by Abraham and many others in the OT? All you are left with is God the Son, Jehovah.


 2011/5/20 8:35

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860


"You will read the Bible very differently once you receive this. This is what it truly means to receive Christ as LORD."

I know this to be true in experience, one of my questions I ask myself while studying is Where is Christ in this? Doing this has greatly enriched my studies as I found Christ is EVERYWHERE! I didn't even really know he was in the Psalms and there have been many times where I realize it is speaking of Christ and it just completely breaks me.

Matthew Guldner

 2011/5/20 8:41Profile

 Re: All Israel will be saved - Understanding Romans 9-11

Hi Joe,

It may seem as if I'm reducing the impact of Christ's ministry, as you perceive it, but I am more interested in the greater revelation of the whole Godhead through the Son, and the FACT that Jesus - makes clear that anyone who has 'seen' Him, has 'seen' the Father.

I notice you didn't attempt to decipher the twenty phrases in Deuteronomy 4 around 'Jehovah our Elohiym'. Nothing could be clearer, than that the whole Godhead is appearing - whatever form they choose for themselves.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, AND HAS LEARNED OF THE FATHER, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS.

 2011/5/20 9:23


The Father is indeed presented in and revealed through the Son, but that does not make the Father into the Son, nor the Son into the Father.

The verses in Deut 4 are partial revelation on the topic, the fuller revelation comes when it is explained in John exactly who was and was not seen.

No man hath ever seen the Father, because no man can see the Father and live to tell about it.

OJ ,

 2011/5/20 10:29



Not only is Christ frequent in the Psalms, but His name is mentioned as frequently in the OT as it is in the NT. Were it not for Esther and a few misc pages I would say His name is mentioned on EVERY page of scripture.


 2011/5/20 10:35



Here is Kevin Daly's response to your question. I agree with his statement.

Dear xxx
I am convinced that Paul was driven in his missionary efforts among the Gentiles by a particular vision that linked the eventual salvation of his 'brothers after the flesh' to the faith and witness of the Gentiles. While this process was already underway in Paul's life-time, and has been ever since, there is scope for a grand finale (without this being expressly promised or stated).
To predetermine a mass salvation of Jews and make it moreover the consequence of the Lord's appearance or any other event, inadvertently undermines the prospect of realising such a hope through the only sure means, namely through the presentation of the original New Testament Gospel. It is for this reason that I seek to expound these and other scriptures with proper care, and with due regard especially to the Hebrew texts and allegories on which they draw, and in the context of which they would have been understood at that time.
Kevin Daly

 2011/5/20 15:15


Zechariah 12:10a
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

John 19:
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced."

The house of David, the inhabitants of Jerusalem will look to JESUS soon.

 2011/5/20 15:38

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