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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the scroll sealed with seven seals in Revelation?

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 Re:

It coheres pretty tightly with Mt 24. You think it is just a coincidence?

I left out the 7th seal on purpose.

loimos
loy-mos'
Of uncertain affinity; a plague (literally the disease, or figuratively a pest): - pestilence

Not sure what Greek Text you are reading.

White horse and false Christ's could be comparable because the white horse is grouped with the four horsemen and I am not sure Jesus Christ would be grouped with them. False Christs are a type of "conqueror", aren't they?

I never said this was written in stone and it's not my argument, just my observations.

When God gaves us His Word, He did not give it to us to lay on the coffee table or frame on the wall. He wants us to seek Him for meaning and interpretation. I don't fault anyone for postulating what they think and I would love to hear more ideas. My ideas are fine tuned as I hear what others are coming up with through prayer and study.

This is not complex code. Just matching it up with Mt 24. Very easy.

Do you have any further observations regarding the seals?

It helps me to see it from many angles.

A777

 2011/5/25 11:53
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:


Yeah, I'm all for anyone wanting to meditate on Scripture... Absolutely! Let's be thoughtful about it. I'm with you on that - even so, I'm not convinced that it does fit very tightly with Matthew 24.

I wrote some of my views on the seals in an earlier post.

let me know what you think

 2011/5/25 13:05Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re: Don't study at Jack Van Impe Correspondence School of Hyper-Dispensational P

RevCrabtree, you wrote:

"I hope this makes sense and that you didn’t take my anti-dispensationalist rants as anything more than an attempt at humor!"

My friend, I was in no way offended by your comments or attempt at humour. But the word of God is to be taken seriously, and we should look to Him earnestly and seriously to gain understanding of all scripture.

Humour does not come into it. As Annonymous777 writes: "He wants us to seek Him for meaning and interpretation."
My understanding of scripture does not come from the Scofield bible, but from the Lord; (but you would dismiss Schofield at your peril). I understand what you say about the scrolls being the plan of God for His creation, and it is useful to see scripture in this way. But I would entreat you as a brother, to read Revelation again and see it in the light of future events not yet fulfilled.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS;" Rev 1:1 (KJV) and:

"Write the things which thou HAST SEEN, and the things which ARE, and the things which SHALL BE HEREAFTER" Rev 1:19 (KJV)

God bless you

David


_________________
david

 2011/5/25 19:14Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

First of all, of course the book deals in part with future events that aren’t yet fulfilled - i didn't say otherwise in my earlier post - but Revelation also deals with things that have been going on since John wrote it. If you like, the book addresses both the now and the not yet.
You were good enough to mention Revelation 1:19 which I think tells us as much – it says that Revelation deals with things:

…that are and those that are to take place after this.
(Revelation 1:19 ESV)


Secondly, as it relates to humor – by all means YES!!! let’s take Revelation (and for that matter all Scripture) VERY seriously… far too seriously to try and interpret it through today’s newspaper.
I don’t take the Bible as being funny but I do find it very “funny” that so many people talk about the clarity and sufficiency of scripture on one hand and then on the other hand they hold to some complicated end-times framework that they themselves probably don’t really understand... This is very “funny”… In a sad way of course.

Thirdly, I think that it is helpful to remember when we approach Revelation that though it was written for our benefit, it WAS NOT WRITTEN TO US in the first instance. It was written to seven churches living at the end of the 1st century in Asia Minor… And but that it is interpreted through this historical context we’ll miss the point… I mean to say, the first century church had to be able to understand the scroll and the seals and the other imagery of Revelation without reference to communism, the pope, the modern secular nation-state of Israel, etc… right?

What I’m trying to say is this, I think that it is far better to consider what Revelation “means” than to discuss what it “means to me”

 2011/5/26 3:31Profile









 Re:

"Thirdly, I think that it is helpful to remember when we approach Revelation that though it was written for our benefit, it:
... WAS NOT WRITTEN TO US in the first instance."

"It was written to seven churches living at the end of the 1st century in Asia Minor… And but that it is interpreted through this historical context we’ll miss the point" "..RevCrabtree

This is what Revelation 1 says:
1. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place."

It may not have been written to everyone, or "US", as you say; but the Revelation was given to His servants...to show them..[ those who are His servants..] THINGS which shall come.

As far as you theory that it was written exclusively to the seven churches in Asia minor;

" It was written to seven churches living at the end of the 1st century in Asia Minor… And but that it is interpreted through this historical context we’ll miss the point…"RevCrabtree

I noticed your reference to the dispensationalism; and your scoffing at Scofield...... [ which fundamentally says that the Lord has set out periods of time where He has set things in motion according to that age....]....and I must say, that this idea that only the 7 churches up near Turkey are directly involved in this word to them, at this particular time in History, Is absolutely dispensational. You speak with two tongues.

..."His servant John; who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."

John the apostle says that this prophecy is the Word of God...and thus elevates it among the rest of Holy Scripture. Also, there is a curse for anyone, at any time, who may pollute it.

John also states that it is not only the Revelation of who Jesus really is, but that this is HIS testimony.....and to keep this prophecy in one's heart of faith as true, as we hear it.

So, then, I might ask you...Where is the man of sin, that Jesus prophesied would be revealed before his coming? and if it is just for those in Asia minor [ the 7 churches], Why is the anti-Christ mentioned so much in Revelation? Those churches have long vanished. So, these words to them have died with them? This must be true if it is as you say;

RevCrabtree writes:
" It was written to seven churches living at the end of the 1st century in Asia Minor… And but that it is interpreted through this historical context we’ll miss the point… "

"I mean to say, the first century church had to be able to understand the scroll and the seals and the other imagery of Revelation without reference to communism, the pope, the modern secular nation-state of Israel, etc… right?"

Wrong. The first Century church understood these prophecies no more than we. They are sealed, and will be unsealed, the closer we come to his coming. This doesn't alleviate the great suffering that shall come upon the Earth in the great End-time Revelation period.

1/3rd of the earth killed...then 1/4th....and world domination by a conqueror...with many martyrs...many...and thirst, and hunger....generally a very tough time. Also, Great Glory, and great promise, along with great warning. KEEP the words of the prophecy..so that you may stand before the Son of Man unstained....and receive the reward of the Ages...Heaven with Jesus and His.

Many will betray another in the church....and there will be a "great falling away."
The letters to these 7 Churches are Divine, and NOT dispensed to a peculiar time period and people. They are the blessings, and warnings of walking in the fullness of Christ, or diverting to a selfish Christianity.

You don't seem to have even a slight handle on this book, while you claim to be an authority. I don't personally know an authority here....but I sure liked Zac Poonen's common sense approach in his series on this book. I would recommend it to you. I learned from it, and was blessed.





 2011/5/26 10:57
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

I can make heads or tails of what you've written. Sorry.

 2011/5/26 11:16Profile









 Letters to 7 churches not written to us?

I can understand that.

 2011/5/26 11:47
JRGuthrie
Member



Joined: 2011/5/26
Posts: 2


 Re: Don't study at Jack Van Impe Correspondence School of Hyper-Dispensational P

Der Rev do you not agree that the things that we see going on in the world each day more increasingly,i.e. famines, pestilence, wars, revolutions, natural disasters as well as a general increase in wickedness are in actual fact end time prophecy as found in Daniel, the Minor Prophets, the olivet discourse, 2nd Tim. 2nd Peter, John's letters and of-course Revelation coming to fulfillment?

Or has Reformed Theology blinded you to this?

your Brother, J. R.

 2011/5/26 11:55Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re:

Dear JR,
Contrary to the odd insinuation to the contrary by my friend, the rather hidebound and reactionary brothertomato, I am not a dispensationalist.

So my answer to you is a simple "no."

I do not think it sensible or safe to interpret scripture through the lens of current events…. Current events such as floods, earthquakes, etc. are simply the consequences of life on a fallen planet.

They remind us of a much greater "shaking" that is comimg...

By the way, (just to upset the Dispensationalists!) There is no biblical nor historical evidence for "the Rapture". John Nelson Darby infered the doctrine sometime around 1820.

 2011/5/26 12:06Profile
RevCrabtree
Member



Joined: 2010/3/26
Posts: 31


 Re: Letters to 7 churches not written to us?

Yes, but the question is, can anyone else understand it?

 2011/5/26 12:08Profile





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