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Rather obvious how men were deemed "righteous" in the Pre-New-Convenant days, as see in part in Heb 11, for one.

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of 'righteous Abel' unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that 'he was righteous', God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him?

Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 2011/5/15 14:35

 Re: Calvin's Institutes in a Nutshell

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

Rather obvious how men were deemed "righteous" in the Pre-New-Convenant days, as see in part in Heb 11, for one.

I see all that too.

But, would you agree with Jeff, then, that Abel was 'born of God'?

 2011/5/15 14:41


Whomever is raised at the last day Must have been born of GOD at that point in time that they were declared righteous.

The two trees become one. GOD never says to those who died In Him before His death - as those mentioned in Hebrews 11, that they are deemed any different than the others who will be raised together with them, on that day.

He no where indicates that only we 'Christians' are born of GOD and they were not, despite their faith.
We'll be resurrected together with no differentiating on His part.

 2011/5/15 14:48

 Re: Calvin's Institutes in a Nutshell

Well, Jesus-is-GOD, your post here proves just how far apart we are in our biblical interpretation. Perhaps that's a relief to know. :)

The two trees become one.

What? :)

Which 'trees become one'? Scripture?

that point in time that they were declared righteous

Let me say again, I have no quibble with scripture's declaration of the righteousness of the Abel - but the basis was different from under the New Covenant - especially since the Old Covenant intervened and it was different under that too.
Whomever is raised at the last day Must have been born of GOD

'Must have been born of God' is not in the Bible. It IS in the Bible that they are 'living', and 'will be raised up', and have been 'accounted righteous because of their faith' - but not 'born of God' as 'sons'.

IF being 'born of God' was such a familiar concept to the children of Israel, why did Jesus have to explain being 'born from above' to Nicodemus?

 2011/5/15 15:12


The Two Trees: Emphasis by quotation marks -

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and "thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them", and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not "the natural branches", take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness:
"otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in "again".

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into

"a good olive tree": how much more shall these, which be "the natural branches", be graffed into "their own olive tree"?

WE are being grafted into "their" tree to make One Tree.

The difference of Abraham's seed and those who remain in unbelief is the issue, in both the O.T. and the N.T..

Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Those who Jesus spoke of who claimed Abraham as their father but weren't children of Abraham -

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

It's Always been "by faith" and to fulfill the promise to Abraham. Whether they be Old Covenant Saints or New - they will be grafted into that Natural Olive Tree which GOD, when speaking of the Jews, calls "their" tree.

All will enjoy the same Resurrection of the dead and benefits and make up His New Jerusalem on That Day.

Christianity is Jewish. :)

 2011/5/15 15:52

 Re: Calvin's Institutes in a Nutshell

Hi Jesus-is-GOD,

Thank you for explaining the two trees. How are they relevant to the question of whether Abel was 'born of God'?

The trees which have respect to all of us, including Abel, are the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life.

I understand the New Covenant situation - although I don't believe the olive tree includes Israel of the flesh from before the New Covenant. The root of the olive tree which is 'theirs, to whom pertain the adoption ...' etc (Rom 9:4 -), is Christ Himself. That's what makes it both Jewish and holy - and spiritually of God. That is necessary if born again, holy Gentiles are to be grafted into it.

However, going back to my original question, you began posting in support of the notion that Abel was 'born of God'. Please could you continue to address that question?

 2011/5/15 16:17


Jesus rebuked those Pharisees in the veres given - basically telling them their father was the devil.

We are born of either one Father or the other father.

Doesn't seem too difficult to understand.
We do the work of our "father", whichever one.
To have a father - you must be born of a Father.

I don't believe the Tree was Christ, in Romans 11.
The Olive Tree represented the true Israel.

No one who is not born of GOD can enter the New Jerusalem.

Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and so forth - were not born of GOD, you believe?

Those who were and are truly born of GOD will enter through these gates - even those of the Old Testament -

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel

How could one enter who was not born of GOD is the question.

 2011/5/15 16:37

 Re: Calvin's Institutes in a Nutshell

How could one enter who was not born of GOD is the question.

The ones who are not born of God, are servants in His house - citizens of heaven yes, but not sons.

Look at the end of Hebrews 11:

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: 40 God having provided some BETTER thing FOR US, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now look closely at Hebrews 12:18 FOR YE ARE NOT come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest 19 - 21,

22 BUT YE are come unto mount Sion, and unto the CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 to the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN [ONES], which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT,


According to Hebrews 11:40, they are already 'perfect'. This is restated in Hebrews 12:23 in the clause at the end of the verse. BEFORE THAT though, is carried through the other idea in Hebrews 11:40, namely the 'better thing for us', which is also revisited in Hebrews 12:23 'the general assembly and Church of the firstborn ones'.

(If you check the Greek, you'll see that 'firstborn' is plural. It's a reference to us, as being born directly from God. We are all of the same 'generation' as Christ - Matt 1:1.)

(There is a large study to follow through the connection with firstborn, right from Exodus, leading through the priesthood right up until Jesus Christ, our great High Priest, not forgetting that in Him we are 'firstborn'. Because He is, we also are partakers of the double portion.)

So, back to Abel. There is nothing in scripture which requires him to have been born again to be in the New Jerusalem. But, like all the others before Pentecost, he is not part of the general assembly of the firstborn.
The Olive Tree represented the true Israel.

The olive tree represents spiritual Israel - Jews who have had a change of spiritual nature + those Gentiles who have become Jews inwardly.
We are born of either one Father or the other father.

No-one was 'born from above' - born of God - until Pentecost.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as RECEIVED HIM,



'that believe on HIS name.'

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 2011/5/15 17:24

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


The ones who are not born of God, are servants in His house - citizens of heaven yes, but not sons.

As a side note to this thought you have posted...

Who is this servant in Scripture?

Isa 42:1 "Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One [in whom] My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

Jeff Marshalek

 2011/5/15 18:00Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


I'm interested to know what's in your mind going forward, which caused you to mention that verse in at all.

Here are some Scriptures to meditate on...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

How, or for what reason is the carnal mind unable to be subject to the law of God?

Another thought...

In the teaching of John on the spiritual nature of Cain and Abel, John also mentions this...

1Jo 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Where is the first time in Scripture do we come upon the seed? What significance does the seed play in the lives of Cain and Abel?

Jeff Marshalek

 2011/5/15 18:14Profile

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