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 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan

Quote:
There comes a point in teaching "demonology" where a person can cross a certain line and be giving Satan more Glory than Christ

Satan was hardly mentioned in the series. Christ and His victory was proclaimed. In fact, this discussion of the series may have looked quite different, if you had simply accepted the brother’s testimony, and applied further thought to the examples and explanations he gives. You could, even, have been delighted at the work God is doing to release the captives from their spiritual prisons, and rather extolled the glories of Jesus Christ for the power of His Name to deliver...
Quote:
you could take one Newly born-again Christian that Loves Jesus and leave him alone with JUST a New Testament and he'd Never Come Up With This Teaching.
Talk about "Bondage" or "Strongholds" - you won't find either of those in the New Testament neither except by choice to return to the Law ...

It seems to me that your main objection is the codification of New Covenant truth which establishes that the victory over principalities and powers is in the Name of Jesus Christ – which IS in the New Testament (and which has been written about in the context of many missionaries experiences apart from Logan's series) that you object to most, calling it ‘This Teaching’, as if it is wrong to put into practise the meaning of the information on the biblical page in conjunction with the leading of the Holy Spirit at the time. There will be new Christians who are delivered from demons by coming to Christ, and new Christians who have no demons, and new Christians who do have demons but aren't delivered. In an earlier post I gave one possible reason for this discrepancy, as the doctrine with which they were evangelised.

Why would a ‘Newly born-again Christian that Loves Jesus’ need to do this codification? It is, as you say, not in his remit. Why therefore, should that be the acid test of whether the ‘doctrine’ is biblical?

God HAS already given ‘teachers’ to the Church, and He DOES give them revelation from His word, and they DO KNOW they bear a weightier responsibility before the Lord for what they teach from His word. This was a point made more than once by Logan.

Regarding the term ‘bondage’, the Church was established on the testimony of the Old Testament scriptures which Christ had expounded to His disciples, and later by the Holy Spirit, to Paul. I think you know the New Testament takes a good deal of the Old Testament truth in its stride, and it’s a straw man to insist that only the New Testament guides our understanding of God today (or then).

Most of the idolatry which is spelled out in detail in the Old Testament, is taken as read in the New, the people then fully understood what was meant by ‘idolatrous practices’, bearing in mind the promises of the New Covenant, and their relationship to the Law.

I agree that in Christ these bondages are broken – and not clearly spoken about in the New Testament - except by their root causes. When practised again by Christians, Paul calls them ‘the sins of the flesh’ listed in Galatians 5, Romans 1 and elsewhere. He makes clear these sins MUST cease for the believer to inherit the kingdom of God.

How would you NOT call such areas ‘strongholds’ or ‘bondages’, if the believer continues to struggle with ceasing? You cannot be sure certain practises would not open the practitioner to unclean spirits. Even if a Christian is in full fellowship with God, walking in righteousness, he can be attacked by an evil spirit, making it necessary to stand his ground in Christ to remain free of it. (As A777 mentioned, such spirits try to inhabit the flesh, not the spirit of the person which seeks to be in fellowship with God by His Spirit.)

Quote:
except by choice to return to the Law ...

I thought this was an interesting point you brought up, but a little disingenuous since ‘the Law’ - as a possible entanglement - only applied to Jewish Christians, and you know that.

2 Corinthians 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Other verses:
1 Cor 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1 Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. 10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. 11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Quote:
folks who have made the choice to not obey or believe His Word AFTER they get "Saved" and those who decide to believe False Doctrines.

It seems you want the cake both ways – to say Christians who have ‘strongholds’ are not saved, but heretics are?

Regarding the matter of curses unknown to the Christian on whom they rest, I can accept you are ignorant of the variety of ways these may affect a person, or manifest spiritually, but I don’t accept the Bible has nothing to say about them, and I don’t accept that the new believer is automatically delivered – although he or she may be.

God uses Christians who have had a separate deliverance since they became believers, to minister to others. I do understand that when Christ died all curses were dealt with eternally, but to deny the administration of these blessings to the lives which need them, I’m sure is not your desire – even if it does ruin the neatness of your theology to date. As I heard a preacher remark: ‘Just when you think you have your theology all in order, along comes God and upsets the applecart!’

 2011/4/24 18:52









 Re: questions

Folks tried to follow this post and somewhat confused. Are ypu saying that born again Christians can be possessed it oppressed by a demon???

 2011/4/24 19:08









 Re: Spiritual Warfare - Jim Logan

Quote:
Folks tried to follow this post and somewhat confused. Are ypu saying that born again Christians can be possessed it oppressed by a demon???

On p2, TrueWitness quoted from Jim Logan who preached the series which Greg Gordon posted in the Announcement Forum.

According to the book (and the talks) 'possession' is not appropriate for Christians, but the word 'influence' is put forward instead.

Jesus-is-GOD doesn't (as I gather) believe that a truly born again saved believer can need any kind of deliverance from evil spirits under any circumstances at all, and has not acknowledged that these may attach themselves to a baby or young child during occult ceremony, of which a person coming to Christ may know or remember nothing, but I do, and I believe it is right to bring the power of the name of Jesus to bear that they may be released from bondage (in such a case, not of their own making).

I don't believe that everyone who comes to Christ is AUTOMATICALLY delivered from every spirit that may attend their life, although I understand that all spiritual power comes UNDER that of Christ. Becoming completely free to walk in victory may be a profoundly wrestling process for such a Christian to come through.

 2011/4/24 19:53









 Re:

Thank you for breaking it down. Would like to interact bit most go. Have some questions to post later.

 2011/4/24 21:02









 Deceiving Translations of Biblical Terminologies -


When I read a sermon, message or post - if it lines up with GOD's Word, Scripture comes into mind confirming what's being read, for each sentence - but when reading things that are Not FROM HIS WORD - all that I read, reads blank to me.
I only respect those things that can be proved by Scripture and haven't heard it yet and won't - I already knew that.

And in the end, all that's left is just character attacks and untruths. Some subtle and others, not so subtle, but outright mischaracterizations both of His Word and of the one asking for His Word.
But - it's HIM that's being attacked and that's the sad part.


~*~

To save room - I took for granted that all know the "Context" of these verses, so did not include the surrounding verses with all of these -


These are ALL of the "BONDAGE" Verses in the N.T..


Which of these verses is about "being in Bondage to or with demons" ???


'John 8':32, 33 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in BONDAGE to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?


Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into BONDAGE, and entreat them evil four hundred years.


Act 7:7 And the Nation to whom they shall be in BONDAGE will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.


Rom 8:15 For ye have NOT received the spirit of BONDAGE again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE of corruption into the Glorious Liberty of the children of God.


1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under BONDAGE in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.


2Co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into BONDAGE, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.


Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into BONDAGE


Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in BONDAGE under the elements of the world:


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in BONDAGE?


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Agar.


Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in BONDAGE with her children.


Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of BONDAGE.


Heb 2:14, 15 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to BONDAGE.


2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in BONDAGE.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [7 times worse?]
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [By choice?]
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. [By choice?]

____________________________________

"STRONG HOLDS" -

The only verse in the N.T. [2 Corth 10:4] where the word "stong holds" is mentioned and the brackets and semi-colon in that verse are in the KJV and glad they are - because there's a SMILIE at the End of that verse ;) and in Context - the "strong holds" that Paul was referring to were "ARGUMENTS" in the Church at Corinth that were against Paul's INSTRUCTIONS and against his authority and he continues this lecture to them through to the end of the book - through to the end of Chpt 13.
Amen - Read all FOUR Chapters and Be Blessed ;)


"2 Corinthians 10":2-6 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4 - (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but Mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ;)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.




And here Paul ends his 4 Chapter Lecture to the Church at Corinth with ....

2Co 13:11-14 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort,
be of one mind, live in peace;
and the God of Love and Peace Shall Be With you.
Greet one another with an holy kiss.
All the saints salute you.
The Grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Love of God,
and the Communion of the Holy Ghost, Be With you All. Amen.


Amen!



I don't know about you, but every time I Re-read Chpts, I get More and More out of Them. Bless The Word of GOD!



But if you'd prefer to have Parents scared to death that some Black spooky thing will come into one of your child's feet while they're sleeping, Etc - that's your perogative.


"Heresy" - Definition - "Choice - the opinion chosen".

"Sin" - choice - 'the action chosen'.

"Freedom" - Choosing to Believe The WORD of GOD and acting upon it!

"Bondage" = Believing a lie and/or knowingly & persistantly rebelling against GOD's WORD.

"Lack of compassion" - those who lead others into false teachings and/or sin.

"Prayer" - Something GOD Definitely hears.

"The Cross and Resurrection" - where HE destroyed both the power of sin and Satan's/demon's powers over those who would believe, have faith in and obey His Word as Best as they can.


"Sociopaths" [in the Church] - will define in some other post.



1Jn 2:5 But whoso Keepeth His word,
in him verily is the Love of God Perfected:
'Hereby' know we that we are 'in' Him.

 2011/4/25 0:40









 Re: Deceiving Translations of Biblical Terminologies -

Hey AtG,

Been keeping up with you and everyone just have not had time to post on this thread. After Paul was baptised in the Holy Spirit you could say that his reading and understanding of the Word of God (OT for him) was greatly enhanced.

The battle was no longer physical and fought on dirt battlegrounds but spiritual fought on the God-breathed dirt (man). The battleground of the mind, will and emotions. The temple was no longer a building but a person. The assault was no longer against stone walls but the precious and lively stones whose walls are the mind, will and emotions.

Here the Lord is talking about discernment regarding this land.

Lev 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

Many Christians today cannot discern between what should be crucified and what should be cast out. You certainly cannot cast out the flesh and you will never crucify a demon. If Christians in the early church were healing the sick, casting out demons and preaching the Word in the power of God and not the wisdom of man, how much more do we need that now? But, again, there is no discernment by the majority of the church today because of the classroom theology that is taught. That theology makes little room for the supernatural and that is usually why it stays in the classroom.

But God's people perish for lack of knowledge.

Num 33:52 Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places:

Num 33:53 And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it.

Dispossess. In other words get them out of your land.

God has given us a land to possess today, and it is not across the Atlantic ocean. And He has certain conditions.

Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

I have so much that I want to say about this issue and I especially would like to talk about the occult and the bruises of Satan and how the innocent are bruised.

Paul understood now what this meant and it had nothing to do with the Romans.

Deu 6:18 And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers,

Deu 6:19 To cast out all thine enemies from before thee, as the LORD hath spoken.

I will leave you with this, which is suppose to be the ministry of every Spirit-filled Believer today.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

More later...

A777

 2011/4/25 1:05









 Re:




Regarding "Missionaries speaking with demon's voices and the series lecture #6 titled "Manifestations" and "curses" [generational and other types] - could anyone please give me New Testament Scriptures that would back up these type demonic manifestations in a truly born-again Christian?

 2011/4/25 2:13
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re: JiG

Quote:
JiG wrote:
Regarding "Missionaries speaking with demon's voices and the series lecture #6 titled "Manifestations" and "curses" [generational and other types] - could anyone please give me New Testament Scriptures that would back up these type demonic manifestations in a truly born-again Christian?


Once again, the New Testament is full of them! Let me explain my belief on this, starting with Cornelius! Cornelius was the first Gentile convert in the New Testament – in the Book of Acts, this means that there were no Gentile conversions under Jesus. Why is that, JiG? Because Jesus was not sent to the Gentiles – Jesus went to his own first.

No one was a born-again Christian (the way we believe it to be today), while Jesus walked the earth, not even the disciples. “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3.5 The Spirit was not poured out until Jesus ascended and they went to the upper room and came down in power!

Back to Cornelius, Peter would never have gone to a Roman Centurion’s house because he was very kosher (I think is the word). So, I’m thinking it is safe to say that Peter was JUST as kosher when he walked with Jesus. Peter ONLY went to Cornelius’s house because Jesus gave him the okay to go to a Gentiles house, he went. (Acts 10) (edit: to me this further proves that visiting and talking to Gentiles did not happen with Jesus)

JiG, I ask you, when Jesus gave the 12 disciples power against unclean spirits – to cast them out (Matt 10.1, Mark 3.15, 6.7), WHO did they cast them out of? The Jews!! Mark 6.12: And they went out, and preached that men should repent. 13 AND THEY CAST OUT MANY DEVILS, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. And in Luke 9.1: Then he called his twelve disciples together, AND GAVE THEM POWER AND AUTHORITY OVER ALL DEVILS, and to cure diseases..... from the believers during that time.

We can even go so far as to say that in spite of the Jews being the “Chosen” people of God, they still had to have demons cast out of them? JiG, how does this happen? Can you explain to me how God’s chosen people had to have demons cast out of them? I truly believe that if you can answer this, you will have your answer for your quote above.

I hope we can pursue this line of thinking and questioning!!

God bless,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2011/4/25 9:39Profile









 Re:

After His Resurrection -
Mar 16:15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My Name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.




Thank you for replying to my question and giving your understanding Lisa. That's appreciated.

By time Jesus had come to His people, they also had "very few shepherds" that cared for the people and the leaders of their time had "added to the Word of GOD" as well. Not much different than the days that we're living in.
But the difference also between them and what happened after they became Spirit Filled by rebirth into Messiah should be evident.

To have the Spirit of GOD residing in a person with Full propitiation of their sin "cleaned out", being Regenerated and also Spirit baptised as well, is a difference that should be understandable to us.
Regeneration and the infilling of The Spirit of GOD is like the difference in day and night spiritually, Sis.

Prior to them being literally 'saved', they were only religious people, attempting to keep the law that our N.T. explains was only a school master that showed our need for Christ.
And with the realization that some false beliefs had come into Israel via the captivity in Babylon and Egypt as well and through the added laws and beliefs that the Pharisees and Sadducees had tacked on, these poor people were at the mercy of the men who led the temple.
Some of these men were good men, as we see Joseph and Nicodemus, who also was told that he needed to "be born-again" but on the day of Jesus' arrest and trial, we see the true state of the leaders of that day and how the people demanded "Crucify Him".
That alone would show the state of the people spiritually.
The fact that it took Jesus to clear the temple before the lame and halt could come to the outter court of the temple, where they were 'supposed to' go to be ministered to by these Priests, also shows how they were treated when sick. By that time, those who had leprosy, palsy, demon possessed, etc, basically had no where to turn because it was believed that they were just cursed of GOD - almost like a Cast system. The Priests were not doing their job as they were instructed to as Levites and we see how Jesus spoke to them as HE told them who their father Really was.
The people were like sheep without a shepherd and under teachings that weren't from GOD as well. This is beginning to sound familiar. You'd have to understand just how far the leaders had fallen from what we would call today as "sound doctrine" and true Godliness. Some of the laws and beliefs that they tacked onto His Word were quite unbelievable by time Messiah came.

It's easy to understand why people would go to the pool of Bethesda believing they had to get in there when "an angel would move the waters" and that the superstitions ran high also, is apparent.

But once Jesus gave his Disciples the power of the Holy Spirit to heal and cast out demons from those that we cannot say were "born-again" as yet - THAT is what turned "the world upside down". Praise GOD!

I know you must see the difference between the people before and after their Deliverer Came, the One who would write His Law on their hearts and totally cleanse His people, from the inside out.

First, before His Resurrection, He blew on His Disciples and said 'receive the Holy Spirit' and then asked them to wait in Jerusalem until they were endued with power from on-high with the Baptism with fire. Those who obeyed this command to wait and were baptised in His Spirit, became as free as free can be and had the power of GOD to set others free from then on and thus, make converts that would then also be Freed and then went on to write our New Testament.

To "cast out" demons means that demons had to be 'IN' the people that were not yet regenerated & Spirit filled, but by being set free, they were able to Believe unto Salvation, as in the story of the "house being swept clean", etc..

I don't know how to word this any better than this - of what the condition of mankind was prior to His death and resurrection and then after Penecost had finalized His full redemption purpose - but we should see it in the Disciples as they took to the streets after the Baptism from on high and the full story of the Book of Acts.


Saul, later named Paul, is just one example of the total night-and-day difference of the before and after conversion of a Good Jewish believer of his time, Clear as a bell.

Just remember that Paul was given to us as our clearest example of what the difference was between even a Very religious law-abiding person of those times was, as the before and after of Regeneration in Christ/Messiah. We cannot compare the two by any means.
To be Redeemed, Regenerated and then INDWELT by The Spirit of GOD is the Difference, as it was with our law-abiding example Paul.


His Love to you as well Lisa.






 2011/4/25 12:29









 Re:




http://media.sermonindex.net/2/SID2080.mp3 :o)

 2011/4/25 19:59





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