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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Workers Of Iniquity

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Thanks Bro. Ron,

To wrap this all up; what is your feeling on the whole Esau thing? There have been a lot of inputs from the writers of the past; but do you have any light to shed on this? If not, we can just move on.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/19 11:36Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:

To wrap this all up; what is your feeling on the whole Esau thing?


...the whole Esau thing? would you like to be bit more specific?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/19 13:41Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
the whole Esau thing



The whole Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated issue.

Malachi 1:2-3

I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Romans 9:13

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

We know the story of Esau. He sold his birthright for a bowl of beans. Hebrews 12:16; lest 'there be' any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright. ASV 'Profane' here is  Bebelos and the word seems to indicate people who trod upon holy things. Like Belshazzar when he took the articles of the Temple to get drunk with or maybe even people who use their body, the Temple of the Holy Spirit, for fornication. I gather that thought from the comparison of fornication and profane in Hebrews 12:16. God is said to 'destroy' those who defile the Temple (I Corinthians 3:17). Destroy here is Phtheiro, which is similar (so it seems) to the idea of profaning. The passage reads, as I recall, "If you corrupt the Temple I will Corrupt you." It seems to be an "eye for an eye" when it comes to Holy things.

My questions are:

1) What was it about Esau that effected God's love for him?

2) What is meant by 'hated' in the above passages?

Thanks!

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/19 14:01Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Oh, that Esau thing!
First some preliminary skirmishes… I note that the famous quotation from [b] I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. [/b] (Mal 1:2-3 KJV) was not written until Esau had been in his grave for a thousand years, and that the context makes it very plain that this prophecy is not relating to an individual but to a people. The first half of the quotation is one of the most poignant comments in the Book. God sums up 1300 years of His dealings with Israel by saying “I have loved you, saith the LORD, Yet ye say…” It is the strong accusation of Isaiah [b] I am inquired of by them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, that walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; [/b](Isa 65:1-2 ASV) but Malachi puts it in the minor key… [b]I have loved you… yet you say…[/b]

Secondly, what was it that Esau, the man, lost? [b] lest there be any fornication, or profane person, as Esau, who for one mess of meat sold his own birthright. For ye know that even when he afterward desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected; for he found no place for a change of mind in his father, though he sought is diligently with tears. For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, [/b](Heb 12:16-18 ASV) He lost the blessing and unique destiny that awaited him. This is not personal salvation in view, but calling.

The contrasting of love and hate is challenging in the scriptures. Have you ever noticed this little couplet?
[b] And he went in also unto Rachel, and he [u]loved also Rachel more than Leah[/u], and served with him yet seven other years. And when the LORD saw that [u]Leah was hated[/u], he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. [/b] (Gen 29:30-31 KJV) It is curious how ‘loved less’ becomes ‘hated’. How should we understand this? Does ‘to hate’ then really mean ‘to love less’? Is that how we should interpret [b] If any man come to me, and [u]hate[/u] not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. [/b] (Luk 14:26 KJV)?

However we understand Paul’s quotation of Malachi in Rom 9:13 it seems plain to me that the statement was made in retrospect rather than prospect. It would seem that predestination may be the result of a final judgment rather than a guarantee of a destiny. (now that could get some feathers flying) in that predestination is the result of judgment rather than the other way around? In other words, it was only after the death of the people of Esau that God revealed his judgment; long after.

In this couplet
[b]It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[/b] (Rom 9:12 KJV) This is not a judgment but a prophecy.

[b]As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. [/b] (Rom 9:13 KJV) But this is not a prophecy, it is a judgment.

The consequence of Esau’s despising of his birthright was ultimately that his people became set in their opposition to those who gained the birthright, and that finally brought about their condemnation. In the light of the first use of love and hate together (above in Gen 29) we have to ask is this simply an idiomatic way of saying that the blessing of God rested on the progeny of Jacob and his displeasure on the progeny of Esau?

In case I haven’t expressed it clearly enough above, I will simply say, that I do not regard ‘Esau have I hated’ as a predetermined disposition of God towards a single man, but as His final judgment upon that people.

You may want to come back on these statements so I will pause…


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/19 15:08Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I will simply say, that I do not regard ‘Esau have I hated’ as a predetermined disposition of God towards a single man, but as His final judgment upon that people.



That people ('Esau') being metaphorically those who by their own works desire to attain unto righteousness, but have not attained it, because they sought it not by faith, but by the works of the Law. And by the works of the Law shall no man be justified. Therefor they persecuted the heirs of the righteousness of God by faith, as did Ishmael persecute Isaac. I don't want to sound too much like Origin, but in this scenerio the bowl of beans would represent a persons (nations) forfeiting of position in exchange for the temporal gratifications of this world (lust of eyes, lust of flesh, PRIDE of life).

So, in short, God loved Esau less than Jacob based upon his handling of his birthright. And metaphorically, He shed His love abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that we received by faith. Those who did not receive the Spirit have been "LOVED LESS", because they do not have the Holy Spirit, by their own decision. they could not receive the Spirit, and hence the Love, by the works of the law. In this way they have "less love" and therefor can be said to be "loved less."

Is that right?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/19 16:32Profile





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