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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I am not questioning any man’s inspiration, only their methodology, and especially when that methodology is laid down as THE methodology..



Hi Bro. Ron,

I didn't take what you were saying in a negative way at all. I figured we were just trying to shed some light on how this all plays out.

As far as THE methodology goes, I have to say that there is no certain way to win all people to Christ. I did a tractate on all this yeaterday and its lost in cyberspace now. :-( It must not have been the Lord's will. However, in it I talked about how Paul used whatever means was necessary to win a person to Christ. if by any means I shall provoke to jealousy them which are my flesh, and shall save some from among them. (Romans 11:14 Darby) "Means" here is ei pos or simply pos: "perhaps" or "possibly." I think he exhausted all possibilities. He even wished himself accursed from Christ if that were a possibility . For I could wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren's sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh: (Romans 9:3 ASV) He "wished" or Euchomai. This is not the mentality of a man who had "THE" method for winning people to Christ, but one that used whatever means necessary.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/18 9:46Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I would say he used whatever the Holy Ghost quickened in his mind under the circumstances. He may not have consciously even known that what he was sharing was piercing peoples hearts, and that the Holy Spirit was convincing the people of sin.



This is really the heart of the issue isn't it? The Holy Ghost must quicken the speaker to truly be a witness for God. [i]That[/i] is the methodology. I believe the Spirit of God awakens men to the subject of their sin and the plan of salvation, He can do that in any number of ways, for example, I believe miracles are used by God to get the attention of sinners in some cases but I don't believe that is the case very often.

God uses people and this is why He has scattered His children all over the world. So, of what are we to testify? Generally, to the truths of the Bible. We are capable witnesses because we have experienced this truth. I believe if we stick to the truths we have experienced we will be faithful witnesses.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/11/18 9:54Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I believe miracles are used by God to get the attention of sinners in some cases but I don't believe that is the case very often.



Hi Bro. Ron,

I agree. One of the reasons I started this thread is to discover if telling sinners that God is angry with them is valid or not. And secondly to discover if sinners reach a level of defiance that God hates them. I am looking for additional legit means to be used with sinners. If I believe that it is wrong to tell a sinner God is angry at them, I do not believe the Holy Spirit will press me to say it, even if it is not in fact wrong. If I study and discover in the word that it is true; the facts are then on the table. Right now, the two things above mentioned, are virtually off the table in the Church.

Remember in Hebrews when the writer says, "Who the Lord loveth he chasteneth..."? Can we deduce from this that God expresses His love for man differently based upon relationship? In other words, He loves the Saints in a different way than He loves the sinner. We often hear "God loves the sinner just as much as He loves you." If this is true, why are they not chastened as sons as an expression of His love?

Maybe someone would know if storgos is ever used either in the New Testament or the Septuagint to describe God's love for His 'children.'


God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/18 10:38Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Remember in Hebrews when the writer says, "Who the Lord loveth he chasteneth..."? Can we deduce from this that God expresses His love for man differently based upon relationship? In other words, He loves the Saints in a different way than He loves the sinner. We often hear "God loves the sinner just as much as He loves you." If this is true, why are they not chastened as sons as an expression of His love?



This leads me to think about the modern cliche "love the sinner but hate the sin". Doesn't this lead to a condescending image of the parent saying to his child, "I'm not ashamed of [i]you[/i], but of what you [i]did[/i]". I'm not sure this is biblical. There is a sense in which we love the sinner and hate the sin. But there is also a sense in which we are to hate the sinner [i]because[/i] of his sins.

Are we supposed to always be super nice and happy and forget about light and darkness not co-existing? And what do we do with verses like this? [i]Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.[/i](Psalms 139:21-22)

Charles Spurgeon put it this way;

" To love all men with benevolence is our duty; but to love any wicked man with complacency would be a crime. To hate a man for his own sake, or for any evil done to us, would be wrong; but to hate a man because he is the foe of all goodness and the enemy of all righteousness, is nothing more nor less than an obligation. The more we love God the more indignant shall we grow with those who refuse him their affection. … We pull up the drawbridge and man the walls when a man of Belial goes by our castle. His character is a casus belli; we cannot do otherwise than contend with those who contend with God."

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/11/18 11:29Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
we cannot do otherwise than contend with those who contend with God



Thanks Bro. Ron,

So do you see our method changing towards the way in which we preach to people who openly reject the Gospel? Or do we even preach unto them at all who refuse to repent? Do we wipe the dust from our feet and go to the heathen?

Is it Biblical to keep on feeding people the Gospel week after week as they reject the word in hopes that "someday they'll repent"? If we do keep preaching, Does it stand to reason that the messages will keep intensifying until they either repent or walk out or stone us?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/18 11:58Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:



Brother Robert ...

i havent the slightest idea of what "storgos" means, but i do know that the preaching of repentance to a sinner is like strewing seed, as i'm not interested in where the seed falls, that to me is the job of the Holy Ghost ... i may have strewn the seed, somebody else may water it, but if that seed has fallen in one predestined and called, fertile ground, then God will make it grow, with the bottom line being that all stages are of the Holy Ghost anyhow, for seed slingers don't strew the Gospel on ones own accord and/or power ... i guess it's not important to me to know if a heathen is either here or there with God, that's God's realm to me, but what's important to me is to let any heathen know that God has provided them a means of choice to determine their eternity in heaven or hell, and this i do out of love ... Love for Christ because by His blood i'm saved, and am commisioned to tell others ... And love for my fellow man because an eternity is a long, long time to burn ...

Anyhow i came across this, in line with brother Ron's (In the light) analogy of the velvet and diamond which was an epiphany for me ... i find this an even greater analogy, and will incorporate it into my "repentence" witnessing ... God bless you bruh! ...


Does God Love Everyone?
(Speaking on Reconciliation)
By Nick Bibile
http://www.sounddoctrine.net/Nick/Does_God_Loves_Everyone.htm


Then how can someone tell an unbeliever that God loves you?

If God loves the unbeliever, then there is no need of a mediator, as there is no enmity, there should be peace between the unbeliever and God, there should not be any need of reconciliation. But in the gospel, we see enmity, mediator, reconciliation and peace. This is the true gospel. Telling the unbeliever “God loves you” is a false gospel. The false gospel will bring false conversions.

Telling an unbeliever “God loves you.” Will not bring true conviction to his heart on sin. Only a person who is truly convicted of sin will realize his need for Christ. Nowhere in the New Testament, we see the apostles telling the unbelievers “God loves you.” Instead, we see just the opposite.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Why were these men convicted of their sins? Because Peter did not say, “Jesus loves you.” Instead he said, “Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” (Ac 2:23)

First the unbeliever need to be convinced of his need of Christ, and need to be convinced of his horrible sin against God, his guilt, the power of sin and the wrath of God that is going to come upon all who are disobedient. Remember when the Israelites were in the wilderness the fiery serpents bit them and many died. Then the Lord told Moses to make a brazen serpent and set it on a pole, anyone who was bitten by a serpent will live when he looks at the brazen serpent on the pole. (Numbers 21:6-9) Jesus said, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up.” (Joh 3:14) My friend, no one will look to Christ unless first the serpent bites them, they will realize the danger of death as the serpent has bitten them. Telling the unbeliever God loves you will not make the unbeliever see the danger. But telling the unbeliever, that the wrath of God is going to come upon all who are disobedient to God. (Col 3:6) In this, he will see the danger, the danger that he is in, as he is heading towards the wrath of God. Then he will realize he needs to be saved, (salvation) from the wrath of God. When you say, “God loves you.” The unbeliever will not see the danger or the wrath of God that is going to come upon him, instead the unbeliever will be comforted. This is not from God as it is not biblical it is from Satan. Today

The English great theologian John Owen (1616-1683) said, “Before people will come to Christ, they need to know that they are lost, condemned sinners, standing accursed in God’s sight.” The Americas greatest theologian Jonathan Edwards said, “In his word we have his threatening against sin denounced by himself. He tells us, that if we go on in sin, he will destroy us, and cast us out of his sight, and pour out his wrath upon us, and hold us eternally under misery.”

The gospel is called the good news; the good news is we are enemies of God, living in sin, God was angry with the sinner and God’s wrath was upon us, yet because of his grace and mercy He sent His Son to those whom he elected. God reconciled the believer and loves the believer.

 2004/11/18 12:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Rahman
storgE: Greek for Parental affection; the instinctive affection which animals have for their young.


Hi Robert
(Rom 1:31 KJV+) Without understanding,801 covenant breakers,802 without natural affection,794 implacable,786 unmerciful:415

(2Ti 3:3 KJV+) Without natural affection,794 trucebreakers,786 false accusers,1228 incontinent,193 fierce,434 despisers of those that are good,865

In both of the above the 'without natural affection' is [i][b]astorgos[/i][/b]
Thayer Definition:
1) without natural affection, unsociable (Rom_1:31 marg.), inhuman (2Ti_3:3 8 RSV), unloving (2Ti_3:3 4 NKJV)
In otherwords 'storgos-less'. I'll see what I can do with my LXX. OK had a look and can't find either storgos or astorgos in the LXX.

I picked this up on the web
Storgos has an unselfish side (unlike eros), which is best understood from the definitions of the only way storgos is used in the Greek New Testament—in its ugly, negative side. Astorgos means “without natural affection”4 (cf. Romans 1:31 & Second Timothy 3:3); the words “heartless” and “inhuman” describe it (2:542)[5]. Pa
rents love their children by caring for their well-being, nurturing them for the future; so when a parent leaves her living newborn in a dumpster, that’s pretty good evidence of someone lacking that natural concern for one’s own kin. Why is this? Because storgos is the “love of kindred, especially of parents for children and children for parents”[10]. {Interestingly, etymology associates the stork (you know, the bird in the cartoon that brings a mother her newborn in a small blanket) with the word storgos; stork—storgos.} So back to the baby dumping mom, she is astorgos which “designates ‘the unfeeling and hard, whose heart is warmed by no noble sentiment; it is applied to parents, but also to animals who do not love [care for] their young’” (110)[10]. See, storgos “is ‘a natural movement of the soul ... something almost like gravitation or some other force of blind nature.’ It is the love which the animal has for its offspring. It is a love of obligation, the term being used here not in its moral sense, but in a natural sense. It is a necessity under the circumstances” (110)[10]. In our day and time, we have either met or heard of many people who lack this important kind of love, probably because they were raised without it.

Storgos has a selfish side (like eros) as indicated in this description: “a comfortable old-shoe relationship comprised of natural affection and a sense of belonging” (60)[11]. In other words, children love parents because of the feeling of security they have in their parents’ care. Storgos is a warm comfortableness, a satisfaction in being together; we see it between a man and his dog or with a man and his favorite chair. So it could be said, “By eros we are conceived and by storge we are reared.” Storgos is obviously the primary love we refer to when we say that we love our children.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/18 13:32Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Storgos is obviously the primary love we refer to when we say that we love our children



Hi Bro. Ron,

Thanks for the research. Would it be accurate to say that God expresses AgapE love for sinners, but not phileo and storgos? Or is it even accurate to say that the relationship we have with God fits the term storgos?

God Bless!

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/18 14:07Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I havent the slightest idea of what "storgos" means,



Hi Bro. Rahman,

Bro Ron did an awesome job with storgos. The other Greek words for 'love' are:

AgapE
Phileo
Eros

Eros is never used in the New Testament and is the root word for erotic. It is found in the LXX (Septuagint) which is the Greek version of the Old Testament. I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt. I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon. Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves. (Proverbs 7:16-18) As I understand it, there word for 'loves' in this passage is EROS. Bro. Ron can correct me on that if I'm wrong.


LXX is the Roman numeral '70'; because there were roughly 70 scholars sent to Alexandria Egypt before the time of Christ to translate the Hebrew scriptures. This was needed because Alexander the Great conquered the then known world and spread the Greek language throughout. It was God's providence, because the scriptures were known in Greek and read in Greek before Christ was born laying a foundation for the Greek New Testament to likewise spread around. In time the language of the Universal Church shifted to Latin. When that happened Jerome translated the Greek into Latin and the Bible was locked up in Latin until John Wycliff. I think the Venerable Baede may have translated John into English, but that was about it. This caused the world to fall into darkness due to the deadness in time of the Latin tongue. Only monastics and priests knew the language and the people were ignorant of the bible. This came to be known as the Dark Ages. Wycliff changed all that. He translated the Latin Vulgate of 405 AD into English; but it was a translation of a translation. Disiderius Erasmus reprinted and compiled the Greek New Testament. luther and Tyndale took that Greek and translated it directy into English. The rest is history.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/18 14:29Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

ps
Rom 12:10 KJV) [b]Be [u]kindly affectioned[/u] one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;[/b]

kindly-affectioned is [i][b]philostorgos[/i][/b]


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/18 14:47Profile





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