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rnieman
Member



Joined: 2008/10/24
Posts: 146


 Hebrews/Jewish Roots movement

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows or has been a part of the jewish roots/hebrew roots movement? Also someone I know has given me some teachings by a gentleman by the name of dwight pryor. He seems to often reference rabbinic writtings and almost hold them up to the same level of scripture. Does anyone know anything else about this guy or the movement? thanks russ

 2011/1/22 9:54Profile
makrothumia
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 615
Texas

 Re: Hebrews/Jewish Roots movement

Dear Rnieman,

As within any movement there are various positions taken, some extreme, others more moderate. If the movement you speak of includes the idea that it was converted gentile philosophers that steered the early church away from its mooring to the Torah and her Hebraic roots, then I have had much personal experience with dear friends who after embracing this teaching were led astray from the simplicity of devotion to Christ.

Among the extemes taught and promoted by "some" within this movement, is that the New Testament letters are not on the same "inspired" level as the Law and the Prophets. Those I spoke with personally, and the books they gave me to read, both marginalized Paul and thus minimalized the revelations he received about circumcision and the mystery of God making one new man in Christ Jesus.

I witnessed first hand this progression among personal friends. They began with the freedom to observe the Sabbath but not compeling others. It was not long before this freedom began to be explained as obedience and then exhorting others to consider the error of not observing the Sabbath. Soon we observed the wearing of tassels, and the discussions of dietary laws of clean and unclean meats. We were soon informed that any genetically modified food was unclean and therefore to be rejected. All of Paul's teachings on these subjects were reinterpreted in a Hebraic light.

It was not long before we began to hear of one new discovery after another. These discoveries involved observing all of the feasts and calendar days, beginning with looking for and sighting the new moon.

The fellowship we once enjoyed in the unity of the Spirit was eventually lost through the dividing wall of hostility. Where once we were all disciples of Christ Jesus, we became those who did or did not observe Torah. I would be glad to discuss this further with you privately or by email.

makrothumia


_________________
Alan and Dina Martin

 2011/1/22 11:18Profile
urbanus
Member



Joined: 2011/1/23
Posts: 17


 Re: Hebrews/Jewish Roots movement

Quote:
Hi, I was wondering if anyone knows or has been a part of the jewish roots/hebrew roots movement? Also someone I know has given me some teachings by a gentleman by the name of dwight pryor. He seems to often reference rabbinic writtings and almost hold them up to the same level of scripture. Does anyone know anything else about this guy or the movement? thanks russ



You can find a lot of information here:

I found these two sites useful. The first link has in very depth information on the Hebrew Roots Movement. Second site has been very helpful also, in understanding the issues.

http://seekgod.ca/

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

 2011/1/23 11:00Profile
fromtheold
Member



Joined: 2006/10/25
Posts: 161
South Africa

 Re:

This is an easy thing to get entangled in.
There are also many movements such as these, we must remember that our faith is Jewish based but we are freed from the law. So study all the Jewish traditions etc but remember you are not under the law but under grace.

This is my opinion.


_________________
esvl

 2011/1/23 12:56Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1447


 Dwight Pryor

Hi all,I think that anything that trys to bring you back under the law cant be right however I have heard Dwight Pryor a few times on Tv and he seems Ok to me.I dont think he made any attempt to preach the law.I just searched him on the web and I dont see much wrong with it.
I do think that we need to look at the bible through the eyes of the hebrews because protestant hermenutics doesnt get it all.The hebrews are the root of the tree.
Jewish hermenutics of the bible opens your eyes to things you would miss out on.I reccomend a sermon By Jacob Prasch on a subject called Midrash which is a Jewish way of looking at the bible.Its on sermonindex,Staff

 2011/1/23 15:12Profile
urbanus
Member



Joined: 2011/1/23
Posts: 17


 Re: Dwight Pryor

Something doesn't seem right about that statement.

Quote:
Jewish hermenutics of the bible opens your eyes to things you would miss out on.I reccomend a sermon By Jacob Prasch on a subject called Midrash which is a Jewish way of looking at the bible.Its on sermonindex,Staff



1Co 2:6 We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown: yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:

and this.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.

Here is a rebuttal to Jacob Prasch's Midrash just to balance things out. To me, this has more of the "ring" of truth to it.

http://www.apostasynow.com/articles/midrash.html


 2011/1/23 17:16Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1447


 Re:

Hi,
Firstly in the Midrash sermon Prasch didnt say that protestant hermenutics was bad and neither do I.Secondly Midrash doesnt say that its pattern not prediction,it says its not just prediction its pattern also;their is a big difference.I have listen to a number of Praschs sermons and at no stage does he try to bring people under the law.Neither does Dwight Pryor as far as I can see. I do disagree with him on loosing your salvation.
Thirdly the majority of the bible was written by Jews,shouldnt we try to look at things the way they did to understand it.
Fourthly Corinthians scripture you quote could easily be talking about protestant view as well as the Jewish view.
If no one had heard of either the Holy Spirit could show us anyway.
The only thing I think looking at some of the scripture as pattern fills in alot of gaps.It is obvious I think that the old testement does have prediction and pattern and if you wanted to study a specific doctrine like the rapture for instance you will find that all the previous raptures will tell us about the final rapture.
I have read the article and it does seem to come accross as a rant against Jacob Prasch in part altough some of the other articles are interesting.Even non Jewish Christians recognise that their is a great value in knowing hebrew etc
An example of how looking at the bible as pattern that the lord showed me: While studying Kings I wondered why God highlighted 42 bears coming out of the woods at the children that mocked Elisha and only by knowing that their was a pattern I wouldnt have understood it fully.
I dont think that Midrash makes any attempt to bring Christians back under the law,it just says that if you look at scripture the way the Jews look at it you will see that their is prediction and pattern in prophesy rather than just prediction.
I do think it is very unfair however that Apostasy Now links Jacob Prasch by writing in the same article to wanting to go back to dietary law or the like.I have never heard him speak of nothing other than saved by Grace.Staff

 2011/1/23 18:42Profile
urbanus
Member



Joined: 2011/1/23
Posts: 17


 Re:

Referring to the Midrash, Mr. Prasch said:

" It takes the wisdom of the ancients to really understand these things." 8.

Does that mean we are all going to need our own Rabbi?

I wonder if you are aware of these teachings by Jacob Prasch concerning Midrash and other things.

Peter Michas, Jacob Prasch and others in the Hebrew Roots, favour the Midrash. Hyam Maccoby notes that The Haggada of the Midrash is composed of Jewish fables:

"The Haggada (found mainly in the Midrash) is the poetical side of Pharisaism, and comprises folktales, parables, quaint fancies and metaphysical speculations." 34.

God issues this warning in the Scriptures found in Titus 1:14:

" Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

Psalm 119:104,105

"Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

In his article, Explaining the Midrash, Jacob Prasch stated that we need the knowledge of the Midrash and Jewish thought to rightly understand the Bible.

"…But Matthew appears to take the passage out of all reasonable context and twist it into talking about Jesus. We have to ask, is Matthew wrong? or is there something wrong with our Protestant way of interpreting the Bible? There is nothing wrong with Matthew, and there is nothing wrong with the New Testament. But there is something wrong with our Protestant mentality…They were reading a Jewish book as if it were a Greek book… The first step is going back to reading the Bible as a Jewish book, instead of as a Greek one." 7.

Referring to the Midrash, Mr. Prasch said:

" It takes the wisdom of the ancients to really understand these things." 8.

"Wisdom of the Ancients" bears an uneasy resemblance to Ancient Wisdom, which is the esoteric term used by occultists for Gnosis or Mysticism. William Kingsland wrote of this wisdom in his book, " THE GNOSIS OR ANCIENT WISDOM IN THE CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES: OR THE WISDOM IN A MYSTERY":

"...when I speak of the Gnosis, I do not refer specifically to the Greek or Coptic variety, but to that 'Ancient Wisdom' which can be discovered as a thread of gold running through allegories and myths and fables from the very earliest times of which we have any literary records, and which has more recently been somewhat more fully expounded to us by some of the existing Masters of that Wisdom." 9.

Are Christians unable to understand the Bibles teachings without this Ancient Wisdom?

Psalm 19: 7-11:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping them there is great reward."

What about other sources of Jewish thought regarding the Messiah, the kingdom of God, sin and salvation? How do teachings expounded from the "Ancient Wisdom" compare with the New Testament teachings? What differences may be found between the inspired Old and New Testament and the "Mishnah, Haggadah, Halakah, Talmud and Midrash?" Has the Holy Spirit equally inspired these sources?

Perhaps Peter Michas is correct in saying that we need to understand the original concepts from history and as they are taught now —particularly from these books and the Jewish people themselves. Obviously, they would hold the keys to the Hebrew Roots of Christianity as taught by the Jewish sages.

Avi ben Mordechai, an Orthodox Sephardic Jew, concurs with Hebrew Roots teachers that the ancient Jewish teachers of the Law hold the answers:

"…Since Sha’ul followed Messiah Y’shua, who also taught the Oral and Written Torah, I submit (at this time in my life) that we should be following in the footsteps of Judaism’s great teachers of G-d’s Law,… I believe that Judaism’s ancient scholars and sages were far more knowledgeable on the Oral Traditions than we could ever hope to be." 10.

Many involved in Judaism and the Hebrew Roots movement embrace the idea that the Talmud is divinely inspired and of benefit to Christianity. In the past, not surprisingly, some Jews have viewed the Talmud as an obstacle, preventing reconciliation between the groups.

We know that many people, Jewish and non-Jewish, do not consider the New Testament to be of God.

However, Avi ben Mordechai redefines the gospel as the Oral Torah:

"…When Paul says, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel" you need to see the definition of Gospel in light of the Mishnah of Mark 1:1ff. It's a direct connection to the Torah of Moshe- Oral and Written…" 27.

It has been established that the oral traditions of the Pharisees, which were committed to the Talmud, take authority and precedence over the Old Testament, as Judaism's holiest book. The Talmud contains material accumulated over several centuries. A complete collection consists of 63 books in 524 chapters. The main elements of the Talmud are the Mishna, the Gemara (Babylonian and Palestinian) and the Midrashim or Midrash. The Mishna and Gemara compose the Jerusalem Talmud, which was revised in the third to fifth century and later named the Babylonian Talmud, the one commonly used today. Credit is given to Rabbi Judah the Prince for the compilation of the Mishna around 200 A.D.

http://www.seekgod.ca/embracebible.htm

And,

Jacob Prasch and the Synoptic School of Research
http://www.seekgod.ca/jpfriends2.htm

 2011/1/23 20:17Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

The problem with studying Jewish Roots is that so much teaching is muddied by Rabbinical sources. This problem is to the extent that it is nearly impossible to reconstruct what Judaism looked like in the 1st Century. There is no road back to it and if there were it is questionable as to what relevance various ideas would have in our times.

The Old Covenant is just that, Old. It has waxed old and is ready to vanish away. The Temple in Jerusalem is gone along with it's supporting priesthood, never to be returned. It was only a type of the true Temple which is the Body of Christ found in heaven and earth.

This is not to say that there are not many useful things to learn studying Jewish Roots. The trap is set for those desiring to find 'authentic' Christianity. For that you must look to the scriptures. There you will find our Great High Priest moving in the midst of the churches, trimming their lamps and speaking to them respectively. This is the exact opposite of Rabbinical teaching. The Rabbi's say, 'it is not in heaven' and have assumed authority in all matters spiritual. One must know this in advance of any study of Jewish Roots. I would recommend the book, Rabbi Akiba's Messiah by Daniel Gruber. Therefore, it is a subject that must be approached with extreme caution.

______________________________
edited to add link:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=1957


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2011/1/23 22:26Profile









 Re: Hebrews/Jewish Roots movement

Brother Nieman,
as a Jew, who follows Jesus, loves Jesus Messiah, fears/reveres God, i have neither read or studied Talmud, Midrash, "Hebrew Roots", Jacob Prasch, etc.

Even after God took mercy on me, and revealed His Son Jesus to me and IN me, i have never read nor followed Calvin, Arminius, Luther, nor them who kiss the ring of the man who dares call himself the "vicar of Christ, that is the pope, the head of that institution in rome.

i follow Jesus, my Savior, Whose Blood is wholly sufficient to cleanse all sin. Not only do i love God the Father, but i believe God as Abraham did, without reservation, without looking back......and with the Glorious Help of God the Holy Ghost, not only can i even begin to "eat" and with careful consideration, understand His Word, all 66 Books of The Bible, but i also have been given via the Holy Ghost the Privledge and Excellency of KNOWING God, that is to talk with Our Father as Moses did, "face to face, as a man speaks with a friend".

i speak not idly, nor boast, except to boast in the Lord, and His Mercy extended to such as i, humbled and broken, yet made whole by Jesus, Praise His Name.

having testified to such Goodness in God, it pains and grieves me no end to see quite a few of these posts on this thread so wrong headed and wrong hearted.

Rather than engage in specific refutation of posts that fail to "grab the wrong end" of this Most Holy Faith, i'll let the Apostle Paul testify to such hasty fleshly opinons at the hands of men, who fail to discern the Purpose of God in relation to the Eternal Purpose of the tribe of my flesh, the Jews.

After i present this Precious Chapter of Paul's Epistle to the Romans, any man or woman, so led, may disect, or exegete as they desire, assuming i refered to what you wrote, be aware, i will not respond. It is God the Holy Ghost Who will, which begs the question; will you have ears to hear?

-------------------------------------------------

Romans 11
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”?[a] 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:


“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:


“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]
Israel’s Rejection Not Final

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,[f] if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”[i]
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”[j]

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 2011/1/24 1:46





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