I will address later but do we actually understand biblical what baptism of the holy spirit is? From the tone of this thread it doesnt seem like it. This thread has come this far without a basic fundamental understanding of what the subject matter is yet so much contention. (**pussled**)Tongues as explicit evidence is unbiblical. Tongues as a 'sign' for unbelievers is however biblical. 1. Tongues is a gift that often accompanies a genuine baptism. There are better gifts than tongues but the gifts we operate in is determined by spirit and not the will of man. (The greater gifts require spiritual maturity and love in order for us to be effective in ministry )2. Most places that say "Tongues as evidence" are the most unbiblical of places. Worship leaders babbling gibberish without interpretation, pastors telling you "God is about to" make you rich, the entire congregation in carnal ecstasy all screaming in tongues, profess to be spirit filled yet unable to spiritually discern false doctrine or teachers *coughs **todd bentley**3. Tongues as evidence churches are like Corinth. There is an air of we are more spiritual and lack nothing. Yet Jesus doesnt see them this way. Is it the spirit talking or self righteous pride?4. Example of evidence by speaking in tongues pastors Juanita bynum, eddie long, benny hinn, thomas weeks, jamal bryant , paula white (do the math yourself.) 5. Paul asks the corinth church "are you not carnal" even with all the tongues manifested.6. Most of such churches have hearing induction loops? *think about it*7. Ecstatic utterance was and is practiced by pagans and without discernment you open the door to many foolish things.8. Was pentecost the first time the disciples received the holy spirit? 9. On the day of Pentecost they spoke in 'other' intelligible tongues (corporate) and in Corinth they tended to speak in 'unknown' un-intelligible tongues (hence the anarchy like today)10. Does the word of God interpret your experience? Or do you let you personal experience interpret the word of God? The power promised is that we would be witnesses in all the earth. Some see power as peter receiving the holy spirit and speaking in tongues and this indeed was a great witness. Some see peter once a denier, get up after pentecost and preach without fear and 3000+ giving thier lifes as an even greater witness. Tongues as a 'sign' for the unbeliver is biblical but Tongues as a sign for the believer is not. the bible tells us clearly what the evidence of and indweling spirit is to the believers and im yet to find one scripture that says Tongues are a sign for beliver. I have believed the Gospel the evidence for me as a believer is not the gift of tongues. This distinction between 'signs' for the unbeliever and evidence of an indwelling spirit to a believer is crucial to a biblical centered understanding of the subject matter. Embarrassing i was zealously a believer of tongues as evidence for years until i was delivered from my own self righteously deceitful heart and realized how desperately i needed him. ConclusionIf Jesus said indeed that we would recieve power to witness what is the greater witness gifts or fruits.Questions i would like answeredWhat is the baptism of the holy spirit?What is baptism into the body of chirst?Can we recieve the holy spirit and not be baptised in the holy spirit?Does the spirit make intercessions with groans that cannot be uttered exclusively only for those with the gift of tongues?Does the intercession of the holy spirit only come once we recieve tonguesI think we have muddied the waters a little with gift and fruit, signs and evidence. Jesus also said we would not be harmed by serpents. So using the same logic could we say that if a believer was bitten by a snake and he died he was not filled with the holy ghost. Paul didn't die form literal snake bites so if all individuals who are baptized speak in tongues and are immune to snake bites then the evidence would have to be tongues and immunity to snake bites. Or better still tongues, immunity to snake bites and casting out of demons.But why stop there...My biblical stance now by applying tongues as evidence logic is that the clearest sign of baptism must be 1. evidence of speaking in tongues(interpretation not required)2.Documented and medically verified immunity to snake venom.3.Casting out of satanic spirits(mandatory or you do not have a genuine infilling remember greater is he...)4. Private jetif you dont live up to my interpretations you do not have the spirit.
7. Ecstatic utterance was and is practiced by pagans and without discernment you open the door to many foolish things.
Matthew 7:22 22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;
They said that they did those things, it doesn't mean that they did. Think about it, How can they cast out devils if Christ is not in them?
The name of Christ is powerful. I believe it could happen.
This is one of the most confusing things to people in churches where sometimes they discern God's presence as HIS word IS preached
hi, i really rather everyone who has all the answers on this question would just be entrapprd in their biased and incorrect opinions and me to go on without opining.the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when the Holy Spirit emerses us in Jesus. the baptism in the Holy Spirit is when Jesus emerses us in the Holy spirit...we certainly receive the Holy Spirit when we get saved but Jesus saidto His followers to tarry in Jerusalem until they receive the promise.on the day of pentacost(50)the Holy Spirit fell and rain man, peter said these are not drunk as ye suppose...WHY?their actions ... is tongues the evidence of this baptism? in all of the cases in acts it is mentioned e.g. see and hear...millions and millions around the world have this evidence...len ravenhill<david wilkerson,charles finney,evan robertsetc all preached or preach this blessing. has it been abused? you bet... the evidence is NOT the gift of tongues...it is your prayer language which can be used as the gift if the spiritmoves...is this abused? you bet...is free grace abused You bet...can you be filled with the Spirit not speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs? probably...if their is a baptism of love and power as evidence.if i wanted to learn how to fly ,i would ask a pilot to teach me, not an aeronotical eng. with a doctorate. if i want to learn about this subject i would ask someone who has this experience.jimp
The name of Christ is powerful. I believe it could happen. Weren't the disciples doing it?
Many in the church today believe that they know that they have "believed in Jesus" they can sin as much as they want or more because they are born-again sons of God that can never lose that status with God. They have confessed Christ as Lord with their mouth at some point, and now they are living pretty much as they want to. There is not that true respect for the authority of Jesus Christ in their lives. They are pretty sure the blood of Jesus covers them no matter what they do, say or believe now. Some of them may actually condemn those who teach the need to be faithful to Jesus Christ. Some have gone a step further and have embraced the things of the Spirit. They have experienced supernatural confirmation of the reality of the Lord - indeed, many of them have not only spoken in tongues, but also prophesied, cast out demons and ministered healing in Jesus' name. Now all this is commendable and Biblical. But it does not excuse wilful sin. - Paul Washer
Excellent response Phillip, biblically accurate and very well presented. The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of truth. We need the Holy Spirit so we will know the truth.John 14:14-17 KJV(14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.(16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;(17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.John 14:6 KJV(6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.John 14:26 KJV(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Ephesians 1:13 KJV(13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,The purpose of the Holy Spirit is salvation.
_________________If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15:10 KJV
