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NewSpared
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Joined: 2011/1/13
Posts: 6
Bulgaria

 Augustine and Calvinism

Hi again.
I have been watching and listening to debates between Calvinists and Arminians (and, happily, material by people who don't want to be called by another human's name and simply study the Bible to find the truth). The name of Saint Augustine of Hippo comes up very often, but no one so far has been able to point me to a place in his writings where he shares any of the 5 points of Calvinism. I have read some of his books and treatises but have not found any of this. Of course, he wrote a lot.
Can anyone give me a reference (or references) to a book, chapter and paragraph?
John Calvin may have quoted Augustine to support his points? Where and how? I'm not keen on reading Calvin's works because of the quotes by him that I have read and because of the way he lived his life, but if you have, your help will be appreciated.
Lora

 2011/1/13 14:57Profile
UntoBabes
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Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re: Augustine and Calvinism

I have just googled " The writings of augustine " and found a site called " augnet " that contains much of his translated writings. the following is a list of what I found. But you have to go to the site. www.augnet.org

His book list
Finding Augustine
His writings chart - 01
His writing method
Augustine published - 01
Beautiful and Apt
Earliest writings - 01
Dialogues - 01
On the teacher - 01
On holy virginity
On the good of marriage
On the work of monks
On the good of widowhood
On true religion
Eighty-three Questions - 01
Enarrationes in Psalmos
City of God: introduction
On Christian Doctrine - 01
On the Trinity - 01
Confessions: introduction
Teaching Unlearned - 01
Rule - 01
On the Epistle of John
On the Gospel of John
Enchridion - 01
Retractions - 01
His Sermons - 01
His Letters - 01
His writings: links


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Fifi

 2011/1/13 16:16Profile
NewSpared
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Joined: 2011/1/13
Posts: 6
Bulgaria

 Re: list of works

Thanks. But this doesn't help me. I have been on this site - I can do Google search too. If anyone can tell me why exactly Augustine is blamed for Calvinism?

 2011/1/13 17:06Profile
UntoBabes
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Joined: 2010/8/24
Posts: 1031
Oregon

 Re:

I got this from another website.

Limits Of God's Plan for Human Salvation.By St augustine.
This is what came to be known as " Limited Attonment " in Calvinism. Augustine has chosen an easy verse to prove his point.

103. Accordingly, when we hear and read in sacred Scripture that God “willeth that all men should be saved,” although we know well enough that not all men are saved, we are not on that account to underrate the fully omnipotent will of God. Rather, we must understand the Scripture, “Who will have all men to be saved,” as meaning that no man is saved unless God willeth his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation he doth not will, but that no one is saved unless He willeth it. Moreover, his will should be sought in prayer, because if he willeth, then what he willeth must necessarily be. And, indeed, it was of prayer to God that the apostle was speaking when he made that statement. Thus, we are also to understand what is written in the Gospel about Him “who enlighteneth every man.” This means that there is no man who is enlightened except by God.

In any case, the word concerning God, “who will have all men to be saved,” does not mean that there is no one whose salvation he doth not will — he who was unwilling to work miracles among those who, he said, would have repented if he had wrought them — but by “all men” we are to understand the whole of mankind, in every single group into which it can be divided: kings and subjects; nobility and plebeians; the high and the low; the learned and unlearned; the healthy and the sick; the bright, the dull, and the stupid; the rich, the poor, and the middle class; males, females, infants, children, the adolescent, young adults and middle-aged and very old; of every tongue and fashion, of all the arts, of all professions, with the countless variety of wills and minds and all the other things that differentiate people. For from which of these groups doth not God will that some men from every nation should be saved through his only begotten Son our Lord?

Therefore, he doth save them since the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever he willeth.

Now, the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be offered “for all men” and especially “for kings and all those of exalted station,” whose worldly pomp and pride could be supposed to be a sufficient cause for them to despise the humility of the Christian faith. Then, continuing his argument, “for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior” — that is, to pray even for such as these [kings] — the apostle, to remove any warrant for despair, added, “Who willeth that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” Truly, then, God hath judged it good that through the prayers of the lowly he would deign to grant salvation to the exalted — a paradox we have already seen exemplified. Our Lord also useth the same manner of speech in the Gospel, where he saith to the Pharisees, “You tithe mint and rue and every herb.” Obviously, the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the people of other lands. Therefore, just as we should interpret “every herb” to mean “every kind of herb,” so also we can interpret “all men” to mean “all kinds of men.” We could interpret it in any other fashion, as long as we are not compelled to believe that the Omnipotent hath willed anything to be done which was not done. “He hath done all things in heaven and earth, whatsoever he willed,” as Truth sings of him, and surely he hath not willed to do anything that he hath not done. There must be no equivocation on this point.


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Fifi

 2011/1/13 17:37Profile
Tears_of_joy
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 Re:

Here you go:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071231050656/www.inplainsite.org/html/three_men_and_calvinism.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20080215072001/www.inplainsite.org/html/calvins_catholic_connection.html

 2011/1/13 17:49Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2037
Whittier CA USA

 Re: Augustine and Calvinism

Hey NewSpared, I do not want to violate rules by posting links to other sites in thread posts. You can do a google search for Augustine's "Handbook on Faith Hope and Love". Chapter XXV titled "Predestination and the Justice of God", as well as other chapters, clearly shows that he had Calvinistic views regarding man's will.


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Oracio

 2011/1/13 18:08Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
If anyone can tell me why exactly Augustine is blamed for Calvinism?



Interesting word choice with the word "blamed," perhaps indicates your current position on the matter? May I humbly submit that if all you know of what is known as "Calvinism" is the five points, then you have not really scratched the surface of what it entails. Calvinism is a worldview centered on God's sovereignty. The five points are merely a response to 5 specific, soteriological points the Remonstrants (Arminians) made.


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Paul

 2011/1/13 19:03Profile
boG
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Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: Augustine and Calvinism

It is questionable whether St. Augustine denied Limited Atonement, even despite the previous quotation. For you will notice the phrase "For from which of these groups doth not God will that some men from every nation should be saved through his only begotten Son our Lord?" In other words St. Augustine just equated "all men" to mean "all groups of men." This is a typical position within Reformed churches.

However, oddly enough, it seems St. Augustine would be classified today as a 4-pointer. For he most emphatically rejected Perseverance of the Saints as applying to all Christians. Or, should we label this view 4½-points? For example, in one place St. Augustine says,

"If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, 'I have not received,' because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received."

And, elsewhere,

"It is, indeed, to be wondered at, and greatly to be wondered at, that to some of His own children—whom He has regenerated in Christ—to whom He has given faith, hope, and love, God does not give perseverance also, when to children of another He forgives such wickedness, and, by the bestowal of His grace, makes them His own children."

It is also noteworthy to mention that St. Augustine, for this very reason, also said,

"But, moreover, that such things as these are so spoken to saints who will persevere, as if it were reckoned uncertain whether they will persevere, is a reason that they ought not otherwise to hear these things, since it is well for them 'not to be high-minded, but to fear.' Romans 11:20. For who of the multitude of believers can presume, so long as he is living in this mortal state, that he is in the number of the predestinated?"

In other words, who of the regenerate can presume security unto eternal glory? (See On Rebuke and Grace written by St. Augustine of Hippo in A.D. 426 or 427)

As for the first question, why is St. Augustine "blamed" for Calvinism? This is because of the following reason:

Quote:
Calvinism is a worldview centered on God's sovereignty.


More specifically, Calvinism is a worldview centered on a particular definition of God's sovereignty, i.e., Theological Determinism. And this is the peculiar view of God's sovereignty that St. Augustine also held.


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Jordan

 2011/1/13 20:22Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Agreed, but it would be said that the contra-view also particularly defines soveriegnty.


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Paul

 2011/1/13 20:39Profile
TrueWitness
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Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 521


 Re:

What makes Augustine an important figure in Calvinism is his doctrine of Original Sin. Of course Augustine lived in the 4th century, long before the Reformation. But his exposition of Original Sin that entered the human race through Adam and Eve is one of the bedrocks of Calvinism. Original Sin is found in the T in TULIP. T stands for Total Depravity.

 2011/1/14 1:14Profile





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