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wedied
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 22


 Re: Day of Worship

The Law did not die. It will never die.

That is why the only way to get "free" from it, (since we are sinners and always will sin while on earth) is that WE had to die.

When we died (in Christ), the Law no longer had any jurisdiction over us.

We now are under the law of the Spirit.

Romans 7:1 the law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth.

Romans 7:4 we have become dead to the law by the Body of Christ. What happened to the Body of Christ. It was crucified. Dead. The fruit you bring unto God now is not fulfilling the requirements of the law. It is fulfilling the law of the Spirit or the law of Love.

Romans 7:6 Says, "Now you have been delivered from the law, that being DEAD wherein ye were held, that you should serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter".


Romans 7:12 The law is holy. That's right. There is nothing wrong with the law. Except, there is something wrong with us. We cannot fulfill the law in the flesh. We can only fulfill the law in the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This is why Jesus had to come in the flesh and die. That was the only way to condemn sin in the flesh and set us free from the law, which is good because God said it is good. It is we who are unable to keep the law because of sin. It is we who are not good. We need Christ.

Christ did not sin, but His flesh was a propitiation for us, for our sin.

If you try to keep the law you will find out that you cannot keep it EXACTLY the way it was given in the OT. And even Jesus said, that Adultery is lusting in the heart. Murder is hatred in the heart.

Now tell me, what does Christ profit you if you try to keep the law, the ten commandments. You have no need of Christ, then.

He has become of no effect to you.

Christ if of no profit to you, and you have fallen from grace.

How do you please God and overome sin?

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

How clear is this?

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Marvel not that ye must be born-again. Ye must die in Christ and be reborn, regenerated spiritually.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

If ever there was an opportune time to tell the Gentiles to keep the 10 commandments, the Council of Jerusalem would have been that time and yet, they saw no need to "trouble" the Gentiles with that.

 2011/1/29 16:02Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"Nowhere in the Bible can you find any scripture that says the Law was faulty."


Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Ro 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Ro 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Ro 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Ro 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Ro 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

The Law brings forth sin and makes it exceedingly sinful. The Law is what kills and the Law is perfect in what it does, the Law is who God is and no man can keep it. Christ is the end of the Law. We no longer serve the Law. We serve Christ by Faith in His living Word, which is Christ Himself in us. "Born Again by Incorruptable Seed of the Father The Living Word Himself, Who is Christ". 1 Peter 1:18-23 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The living Word, The Living Logos of God. John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Quote: ""Would you mind explaining to me exactly how doing God's will ends up in your mind as stepping on the Cross?""

If a person is doing all good of the Law in an effort to please God, either for salvation or to please God and manipulate God into blessings, then He now is competing with Christ for the glory of completing and accomplishing justification. As Christ is our only justification and He has been made much more that this; 1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. ((((((((But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:)))))))) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I will not glory in anything, be it law keeping, Sabbath keeping or any other thing except Christ and Him Crucified, this I also always preach; "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2011/1/29 20:17Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
As for the 10 Commandments they too are done way with. :) We are given but TWO Commands Love the Lord, Your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. Under these two Laws we keep all the Laws but are Free through Grace to operate under and through these two laws.



Matthew, are you suggesting the acts of adultery, murder, coveting, lying, dishonoring God, using his name in vain are acceptable for a Christian?


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Sandra Miller

 2011/1/29 21:00Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3695
Ca.

 Re:

Even non Christians know that are not acceptable.


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Phillip

 2011/1/30 2:00Profile
bibleseeker
Member



Joined: 2011/1/21
Posts: 21


 Re: sorry

Hi Bro. Chris Sorry for the mistake.

 2011/1/30 2:22Profile









 GinnyRose

you asked:

Quote:
Matthew, are you suggesting the acts of adultery, murder, coveting, lying, dishonoring God, using his name in vain are acceptable for a Christian?



in response to a brothers testimony about Jesus distilling EVERYTHING we are commanded to do: as you know this passage is in Matthew 22:35-40

"And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

what Jesus did was Wonderful, with two verses of Scripture, He made the Cross, "Love the Lord"....thats our vertical relationship with God, then he took a verse from Leviticus, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". Thats our relationship with each other, the horizontal bar.

Now, if you TRULY love your neighbor you wouldnt, you couldnt, steal from him, covet his things, desire to have sex with his wife, and all the bad things folks to do one another...you also mentioned "Dishonoring God" and taking His Name in vain, thats already covered in the First Royal Commandment of Jesus, which is recitation of the Sch'ma, "Hear O Israel"...so I do believe Jesus covered it all.

maybe you were in crabby mood, because that question to Matthew has a slight accusatory tint:

Quote:
Matthew, are you suggesting the acts of adultery, murder, coveting, lying, dishonoring God, using his name in vain are acceptable for a Christian?



re; The Ten Commandments, i always thought that ole Judge in Alabama, that made that big stink about erecting a Ten Commandment statue in the public square was just making a show of religion, to enhance his political standing.

That's what some of the Pharisee's and Saducce's did before and during Jesus' Earthly Ministry. i also know this, in these days; some think the Pharisees and saducees died out.

no, they didnt, for the heart of man is dark, and some of them turned into religionists that call themselves "Christians", or "evangelicals", and make a big show of their religiousity, their "righteousness", when in reality, they are just a brood of vipers, the 21st Century varietal...nothing is new under the sun. They can fool and decieve other people, but they ain't fooling God and will only realize this when they cry "Lord, Lord"...and He will say, "I never knew you".

Just that alone would cause me to quake in fear, but thats just me.

This is not meant towards you beloved sister....not at all.

Its just that i see all the outward shows of religiosity, the vain foolish religious arguments on this forum, its just vanity, vapor and wind, and One Day there WILL be a price to pay.

what i mean to say is that i once came to this forum for Fruit, for iron sharpening iron, for that agape love between saints, which i crave, but lately...something very hard hearted, and cold has crept in here, a brittle form of religiousity that is totally bereft of Jesus' Love.

forgive me, if i seemed to group ALL saints here in that camp, seeming to tar all..that is not my intent.those who belong to the Lamb of God, Jesus, know who they are, and those who really arent, know in their secret hearts, how bad they have offended God,





 2011/1/30 4:22
bibleseeker
Member



Joined: 2011/1/21
Posts: 21


 Re: Law died

Hello Bro Chris: Of course the Law didn't die. God calls it perfect and eternal. It seems the large majority thinks that the only thing we have to do is, in short "Love". Jesus says if you love perfectly you fullfil the Law. Very true. And just the same as you, I believe that Jesus indwelling in me gives me the power to overcome. Does that mean I no longer have to do anything? You quote Romans to prove this. If we don't have to do anything then it amounts to God forcing us to keep the two. Again I know from the posts on this forum, everyones hair will rise against this statement. But the reality is that I know many Christians who believe this doctrine and their fruits belie their words. Don't presume to tell me I'm not obligated to keep the commandments, that there is nothing for me to do. God has given me a mind and He expects me to use it. Faith without works is dead being alone. Also in Isa 30:21 "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left." I have to exercise faith. But I am still free to sin if I wish, deliberately or in innocence.
If I believe the greater exposition of the two commandments, i.e. the ten, are no longer necessary to point out sin to me, I'm in serious trouble because I'm still in the flesh, in other words I deny that I need any further knowledge about sin. Yes of course if I'm in Jesus and Jesus in me, and I OBEY Him, I am dead to the Law. You say this very clearly. But the instant a person sins again they come under the Law and its' penalty.(See Ezekial 18:20-24) Unless they never sin again, the full Law will be necessary for us to identify that sin. I really hope that no one is saying they never sin. And yes, Christ shows us our sins as well by His indwelling in us. And of course He never forces anyone. Like I said we can still sin.
The two commandments Christ gave us clearly point out our duty.
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
I totally believe this. But I find that God does not stop there. Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Now listen Bro. Just because the majority of folks think that all you need is Love, that's not what God says. The majority has always been wrong. I give you a couple of verses to prove this.

How many people will be saved and what are their characteristics?
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
What is a remnant? It's a little piece of the original.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Notice the doing part, please. It's a conscious, rational decision that governs their actions.

What commandments? Obviously the two above. But what did Jesus say about those two commandments?

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
He's saying these two are the embodiment of the law.

I'm going to repeat this again because no one seems to see it. What's the problem with you keeping all the law? If you really believe in Jesus, that's what he says He does. (see John 1:19). Therefore if Jesus is dwelling in you, you'll do only what He does. I submit to you, Keeping Sabbath is just too much out of step with your life, that's the real problem.

I have kept the Sabbath for over half my life. The Lord removed huge obstacles in order for me to keep it. He has blessed me with countless blessings even before I fully understood this marvellous day and its' purpose. When I first set Sabbath aside, it wasn't unusual to also have a party that day, complete with party favours. Now I am 60 years old and of course those things are gone. I know I am not righteous. But the hours of the Sabbath are when I learn things from the Lord like no other day. There is a purpose for the Sabbath and it has nothing to do with obeying the Law. "The Sabbath was made for man" The purpose is divine and if you don't keep the day God set aside, you will never gain the pronounced blessing. Suit yourself. Each of you is a free agent with the power to choose. Without a total surrender, you are the only one who loses. You will interpret the scriptures according to man's knowledge coupled with your own. I see this whole site filled with man's knowledge.

Can anybody out there truly say they have conquered all the lusts of the flesh? I highly doubt it. Certainly in my case, I still get angry in traffic, I still want a new car because my neighbour got one, I want.... Yes, Christ dwelling in me guides me. Does He stop me from succumbing to the flesh? No, its' my choice. Does He forgive me when I repent? He says He does. Then I sin again. This is crucifying Him again, not, like I was told here, obeying God and His law.
No, I'm not perfect. So I still need the Law to point out sin to me. Because I am human and not sinless. Can keeping the Law save me? Of course not. But I try to keep it because Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

May all realize that the real road is narrow and few there be that find it. Yes, Jesus is the way, but there is that other part, our obedience. There, just like the Israelites, we say "we will do it" forgetting that obedience is taking the whole Word, not just the parts that are smooth and then interpreting to suit ourselves.
Thanks to everyone for their comments.

 2011/1/30 4:45Profile
wedied
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 22


 Re:

bibleseeker,

Jesus did not even keep the Sabbath. He transgressed it according to the Pharisees.

You cannot and have never kept the Sabbath the way that God told Israel to keep it.

The law is good, but the born-again believer who has the Spirit of God indwelling him, has died in Christ, thus where the law will never die, the born-again believer has died to the law.

This is an understanding that is given to a born-again, Spirit-filled believer, by the Spirit.

 2011/1/30 9:10Profile
reproach
Member



Joined: 2011/1/29
Posts: 9


 Re: GinnyRose

Natan4Jesus says,

Quote:
what i mean to say is that i once came to this forum for Fruit, for iron sharpening iron, for that agape love between saints, which i crave, but lately...something very hard hearted, and cold has crept in here, a brittle form of religiousity that is totally bereft of Jesus' Love.



I am only here for a short while. My observation. There is much mixture here. God does not dwell in mixture or Internet Forums. Just people.

If He did dwell in Internet forums, He would not be here, because of the mixture (lies and truth).

Maybe that will help you.

This is just a conglomeration of great stuff and bad stuff.

 2011/1/30 9:16Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"Nowhere in the Bible can you find any scripture that says the Law was faulty."



Rom 7:7-14
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Heb 7:18-19
(18) For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
(19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

I have been following this post a bit, interested in where each person is coming from in their way of thinking about the law. It is true that the law is NEVER said to be evil. The law was holy and just and righteous and true. It was an expression of, or perhaps more appropriately a shadow of the holiness of God. Man was carnal, sold under sin, but man (including the Israel) had this mistaken idea that he could, by his own efforts at righteousness somehow attain unto righteousness in the eyes of God. The law was given to stop the mouths of men and to make every one of them guilty before God. The law did not teach us steps 1 through 600 or even steps 1 through 10 to walk in so that we might please God or be righteous in His sight. It condemned us because in it were the standards that were only a shadow of the true holiness of God and we were never able in our own flesh to keep these standards. This is the whole point of Paul's lament in Romans 7. If we could not even keep the shadow, how could we attain unto the real thing. This is what Jesus shows in Matthew 5.

So enter the law. But instead of falling on their faces, Israel embraced the law as the way to right standing with God. They prided themselves on their ability to keep the law, at least the Pharisees did, and believed that because of their efforts they were pleasing to God. This is why Jesus used the Pharisees in Matt. 5 as an example as he taught the common folk. But in reality, all their efforts to please God by keeping the law were in vain. It was vanity because it was self reliance instead of faith in the transcendent.

So the law is not evil, only weak and unprofitable. The law does not bring righteousness, it condemns and brings knowledge of sin. So for righteousness sake it is totally unprofitable. In that sense scripture does call the law "faulty" even though it is totally Holy.

(See Rom 9:30-33)

(30) What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
(31) But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
(32) Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
(33) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Jesus and right standing by faith were a major stumbling block to the Jews. It just did not fit into their schema. The them whose concept of righteousness was wrapped up in how well they kept the letter of the law, righteousness without the law simply did not compute. Jesus did not offer them a better set of laws to keep, nor an added strength to help them keep the law they had. He offered an end of the law for righteousness sake and a righteousness that was without the law. (Romans 10:14, Romans 3:21)

Many Christians somehow deep inside also have a bit of a problem with this idea. They will readily admit that righteousness cannot be obtained without faith, but then they blend the law back into the remainder of the Christian life, and in actual practice feel unworthy, dirty, and unrighteous to varying degrees if they fail to keep one part of the law or another, including laws they have imposed on themselves.

Scripture clearly says the law has been done away with. (See Heb. 7:18-19 above) Many equate this statement with the idea that one is saying, "So that means it is OK to rape, kill, commit adultery, steal, etc.." This is the same misconception of scripture and grace that Paul counters in Romans 6 when he says, "What shall we say then, shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" For a person who retains a bit of the legalistic (law based) mindset, this is the first question that comes to mind, and Paul addressed it on purpose. (Please note, I am not throwing stones at anyone as I have and still do battle this mindset myself from time to time, so I am speaking kettle to kettle on even footing.)

Paul's point is that the new birth involves a death and a regeneration. We die to self and sin and are regenerated so as to walk in the power of the Holy Spirit rather than our own power. The law defined sin as "Thou shalt not commit adultery." If we follow strictly the letter of the law we soon come to the place of writing our own Talmudic tradition that defines what this means. The law NEVER condemned lusting after a woman. One could have all the lust in his or her heart that one wished and still be keeping the letter of the law "thou shalt not commit adultery" flawlessly. Jesus in Matt. 5 showed us the ineffectual nature of the law when he said, "the law says don't commit adultery but I say lust is really adultery in the heart." That is the point. If I walk in the spirit I will live a life that is orders of magnitude more "holy" by the very nature of regeneration and a spiritual life than I ever could by keeping the law.

Paul warns us in Galatians, Romans, Hebrews, and in several other places that to return to an emphasis on keeping law rather than walking in the Spirit, and in addition to righteousness by faith as in the Galatian church, is fraught with danger and should be avoided. It leads us back into the bondage of legalism. (See Gal. 5)

This is why Paul's statement in the letter to the Corinthian church is so significant. He calls the ten commandments in particular a ministration of death. The law is good if it is used lawfully.

1Ti 1:8-10
(8) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
(9) Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
(10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The law condemns these people and shows them that they are guilty of sin before God and puts an end to any form of self righteousness. That is the only purpose of the law in the NT.



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Travis

 2011/1/30 12:19Profile





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