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ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Faith1...

Let me rephrase it so that it is a little more simple:

Do you think that someone is really a true believer if he/she doesn't "keep" the Sabbath (as you understand it)?

If they don't keep the Sabbath the way that you believe that the Bible says they should, will they spend Eternity with the Lord?

Thanks for the clarity.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/1/28 22:51Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

I love bondage threads....


_________________
Christiaan

 2011/1/29 0:05Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

It's not surprising how often people show up here and dutifully operate under the letter of the law and therefore proclaim that a "Christian" should be keeping Saturday holy. The flesh nature constantly looks for rules it can fulfill without having to take up the cross and deal with the heart. But rules are of no value against the rebellious nature of the flesh.

The emphasis of the New Testament is not on rules but on a Spirit led, heartfelt love for all men. We don't just worship God by the letter on one day, but we worship Him every day by the Spirit. To those who have been given a new heart, every day is lived as unto the Lord, how blessed we are!

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life... Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:4,9-11)

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2011/1/29 0:16Profile
bibleseeker
Member



Joined: 2011/1/21
Posts: 21


 Re:

Hello Bro. Chris!
Quote:If we set the Sabbath keeping apart from the work of Christ on the Cross, we are taking His sacrafice and shed blood and stepping on the Cross as we walk to the Sabbath.

Pretty strong statement brother. Would you mind explaining to me exactly how doing God's will ends up in your mind as stepping on the Cross? God is a God of order, your view promotes chaos. All you have to do is look at the different churches. There are hundreds of versions of what is called truth and everyone says their view is the right one. They all point to the Bible as their creed.
What is the result? Non-believers point to the widely divergent views and say I want no part in this confusion. New believers get the impression that God has somehow changed when the New Covenant was made.

What is God's word on this matter? Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Did you see it? He says He changes not. But in spite of this plain Scripture, the man made versions of the Law continue such as: We are now free to do anything we like says one. Another says oh no, we now keep Sunday in honor of the resurrection, the next says the disciples gathered on Sunday, or we are free to keep any day we choose holy, I don't have to obey the commandments because Jesus died for me, every day is holy....

Let's see what Jesus said: Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Notice He says He can do nothing of Himself and does only what His Father does.
What does the Father do?
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
So, at least to me, it is clear that Jesus as my Lord, King and Savior would not do anything contrary to the Fathers' Will. He says so quite plainly. If I have surrendered to Him fully, my deeds will be in agreement with what Jesus says He does.

What exactly is the New Covenant and how does it differ from the Old. Jesus says: Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;"

Okay, so Jesus empowers us to disobey the laws that He puts in our hearts.I think not.

In Hebrews we read: "Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
God says the first Covenant was faulty, can you find something wrong in Gods' Ten Commandments, why no, God describes them as perfect,eternal.
Here is the first Covenant: Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"
So what is faulty with this covenant?
We find the answer in: Exo 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. Please notice the ten commandments were not given yet.
Here we have it plainly stated, The people of God said "we will do". Who was going to do it? They were. They were all sinners and yet they felt they could obey the Lord's commands' in their own strength. How long did this obedience last? Sadly, only a few days, less than 40.
Exo 32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

The second commandment:Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Clearly the people could not keep their part of the agreement.(covenant) This is the faulty part. God knew they wouldn't be able to keep their part, but he allowed them the opportunity to try so they would realize their sinful nature. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Now lets' recap.
Old covenant was faulty. The Old Covenant was the people obeying the Lord in their own strength.
New Covenant. Lord writes His laws on our hearts, we are empowered by Christ to keep them if we choose to obey. We however, do not like to obey, especially when it involves being peculiar or requires a cross.
Jesus always does the things He sees His Father do. In other words, if one is truly Christs'servant, he will do the same as Christ, i.e. sin no more. When we presume to change Gods' Law and obey our own version, well, I for one, would not be expecting a reward.

Nowhere in the Bible can you find any scripture that says the Law was faulty. Man, encouraged by Satan, presumed to change some of them, especially the fourth, because in that commandment we find out who God is, His Domain, and His Right to Rule. Without this commandment, we wouldn't even know who God is. Amazingly, this very commandment is the one that the majority of Christians feel is no longer in effect under the New Covenant.This is the major bone of contention concerning the Law. Why? what's the problem? God sets a weekly appointment for us to keep with Him. We say Oh but I have more important things to do that day. Any other day will be fine but not that day. God says you are my servant and that's the day I have reserved for communion with you. You can come another day but I won't recognize your day as holy. It's one of the six I commanded you to work on.

Who has the most to gain? God certainly gains nothing. I submit to you, Satan gains. Additionally, of course, the second commandment was removed entirely and the last commandment split into two so there'd still be ten. This has led to more confusion.
Who is not the author of confusion?
" 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." There are only two powers, God, or Satan.

Brother, the reality is that none of us has the right to change or abrogate God's Law. We can certainly disobey them, in fact that's all we can do of ourselves. God's Law is not the old Covenant or the New. The covenants differ in the way the results are achieved.

How do we glorify Jesus and His Sacrifice on the Cross?
By obedience to His Holy commands which are in agreement with His Holy Writ. The criteria for salvation is written in Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

May you gain a new understanding of this most important matter is my wish and prayer for you. Thankyou for reading.

 2011/1/29 2:46Profile
bibleseeker
Member



Joined: 2011/1/21
Posts: 21


 Re:


Good thoughts Brother

 2011/1/29 3:46Profile
Faith1
Member



Joined: 2011/1/23
Posts: 18


 Re:

Quote:
Let me rephrase it so that it is a little more simple:

Do you think that someone is really a true believer if he/she doesn't "keep" the Sabbath (as you understand it)?

If they don't keep the Sabbath the way that you believe that the Bible says they should, will they spend Eternity with the Lord?





God has given instructions for us all in His Holy Word. If a person truly wants to know if they should keep the Sabbath and how they should keep it, they must study the matter out and pray for wisdom. I have no authority to tell someone how to keep the Sabbath.

My prayer and study has lead me to believe that all of God's 10 commandments are good and bring a great blessing.

God has written His law on my heart and I desire to obey Him because I love Him and He has sacrificed His son to save me.

Psalms 19:7-8 KJV
(7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.


Psalms 119:1-6 KJV
(1) Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
(2) Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
(3) They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
(4) Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
(5) O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
(6) Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


I really do not understand why someone who professes to love God and Jesus would not want to obey the 10 Commandments.


It seems that most are ok with keeping 8 or 9 of them. If I asked you is it ok to steal or kill, I am guessing you would say no it is wrong to steal and kill. But the one commandment that most do not want is the 4th ... keep the Sabbath holy ... so in order to get rid of that one they throw out all of them.

Honestly, which of the 10 commandments is no longer valid?
Are you telling me I can:
have other gods
worship idols
take the Lord's name in vain
keep any day holy
dishonor my parents
kill
commit adultery
steal
lie
covet my neighbour's possessions and family

And for the other person who commented that this was bondage; how can obeying the first 4 which show love to God, and obyeing the last 6 which show love to your fellow man be bondage? Rather, does it not show you have a changed heart and that Christ dwells in you, which is the only way we can keep the law.

Romans 3:31 KJV
(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


 2011/1/29 8:19Profile









 Re: to labour/work or not to work.


Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


BibleSeeker and I had a PM discussion and I felt it was good.

I laid out these verses to him and asked if he worked on Saturday at all.
Also, he assured me that he's not SDA.
I also gave Romans 14 in that one post to him.
I asked, what IF a person does need to work on Saturdays.
I told him that I felt every day should be kept Holy.
I mentioned why the first Church met on Sundays.. but stated that I believe Saturday has always been the "sabbath" and any Jewish person could prove that.
Even scientists have "proven" (ha-it's been in His Word for how long?) - that the human body functions optimally with one day per week of rest.

Again, my question to those who keep the sabbath is - do you ever work on the Sabbath?

BibleSeeker gave a good answer on that, but I'd like to hear it from others.

Just as we apply Romans 14 to one side, we should apply it to both sides.



I think the Spirit of the law is more concerned with those who don't work at all and 'rest' more than is Scripturally appropriate (then they shouldn't eat - right? :)
And those who barely keep Any day Holy as unto the LORD.
Always that boob-tube on and such.
Just my questions or opinion.

 2011/1/29 8:28
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re: Day of Worship

This is a very simply question if we simply think about who the early church consisted of. The first Christians were primarily Jews, they wanted to keep the Sabbath and Honor the Lord Jesus Christ by worshiping on another day traditionally Sunday or the First day of the week also called "the Lord's Day" because it marked The Day The Lord Jesus rose from the Tomb. It wasn't until Paul started to more predominately evangelize the Gentiles the Sabbath wasn't kept because the Gentiles weren't under Jewish law.

As for the 10 Commandments they too are done way with. :) We are given but TWO Commands Love the Lord, Your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind and with all your strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. Under these two Laws we keep all the Laws but are Free through Grace to operate under and through these two laws.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2011/1/29 8:43Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi bibleseeker...

Quote:
Hello Bro. Chris!

Quote:If we set the Sabbath keeping apart from the work of Christ on the Cross, we are taking His sacrafice and shed blood and stepping on the Cross as we walk to the Sabbath.

Pretty strong statement brother. Would you mind explaining to me exactly how doing God's will ends up in your mind as stepping on the Cross?



Actually, I didn't write this. I think that this was actually from Brother Phillip.

Thanks,


_________________
Christopher

 2011/1/29 13:34Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi Faith1...

Quote:

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Let me rephrase it so that it is a little more simple:

Do you think that someone is really a true believer if he/she doesn't "keep" the Sabbath (as you understand it)?

If they don't keep the Sabbath the way that you believe that the Bible says they should, will they spend Eternity with the Lord?



Quote:

Faith1 wrote:
God has given instructions for us all in His Holy Word. If a person truly wants to know if they should keep the Sabbath and how they should keep it, they must study the matter out and pray for wisdom. I have no authority to tell someone how to keep the Sabbath.

My prayer and study has lead me to believe that all of God's 10 commandments are good and bring a great blessing.

God has written His law on my heart and I desire to obey Him because I love Him and He has sacrificed His son to save me.

Psalms 19:7-8 KJV
(7) The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
(8) The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.


Psalms 119:1-6 KJV
(1) Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
(2) Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
(3) They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
(4) Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
(5) O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
(6) Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24 KJV
(23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


I really do not understand why someone who professes to love God and Jesus would not want to obey the 10 Commandments.


It seems that most are ok with keeping 8 or 9 of them. If I asked you is it ok to steal or kill, I am guessing you would say no it is wrong to steal and kill. But the one commandment that most do not want is the 4th ... keep the Sabbath holy ... so in order to get rid of that one they throw out all of them.

Honestly, which of the 10 commandments is no longer valid?
Are you telling me I can:
have other gods
worship idols
take the Lord's name in vain
keep any day holy
dishonor my parents
kill
commit adultery
steal
lie
covet my neighbour's possessions and family

And for the other person who commented that this was bondage; how can obeying the first 4 which show love to God, and obyeing the last 6 which show love to your fellow man be bondage? Rather, does it not show you have a changed heart and that Christ dwells in you, which is the only way we can keep the law.

Romans 3:31 KJV
(31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.



I didn't really find an answer to my question.

Now, no one is saying that the 10 Commandments are completely null and void. What I am saying is that I have already FULFILLED THEM by the "law of Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1-2) -- which set us free from the "law of sin and death" (explained in Romans 5, 6 and 7). We are no longer bound to the old covenant...the old law. We fulfill it by simply following Christ.

Jesus explained this fulfillment in Matthew 5. Instead of worrying about observe the commandment against adultery if you are now freed from lust (Matthew 5:27-30). You don't have to observe the commandment against murder if you don't hate (Matthew 5:21-22). Do you see what I am saying?

God blessed the Sabbath on, well, the first Sabbath. Why? Because he had rested (completed his work) on that day (Genesis 2:2-3). Yet, we don't hear about the Sabbath again in the Word of God until Exodus chapter 16 -- a period of several thousands of years.

Did Adam observe the Sabbath? Did Enoch? Abraham? Isaac? Jacob? Joseph? There is nothing in Scriptures to indicate as much.

Now, it is possible that they observed something...or they simply remembered God's finished work on it. However, this is not recorded in Scripture. It wasn't until God gave the law to Moses where there is any indication of specific prohibitions or requirements for the Sabbath.

Still, we weren't freed from just MOST of the law of sin and death. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set us free from the ENTIRE law of sin and death (Romans 8-12).

I do not believe that we are under the yoke of this law. I don't believe that there is a binding observance or set of requirements to fulfill this particular commandment from the Old Covenant. EVERY DAY, I remember the finished work of God. EVERY DAY, I remember that he completed His work by the 7th day. EVERY DAY, I am to be holy. In my view, TODAY is the Sabbath rest for the children of God (Hebrews 4).

Still, I wouldn't mind a direct answer to my previous question(s). Thanks!


_________________
Christopher

 2011/1/29 13:57Profile





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