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kwamenat
Member



Joined: 2011/1/8
Posts: 58


 Re:

Solomon,

Paul was not talking about the Sabbath day. He was referring to other Jewish festival holidays & Pagan holidays. Also, some of the Christians were offended cause other Christians ate meat that was offered to idols which Paul felt it was not worth arguing about which he was right.

Well if you don't think breaking any 1 of the 10 commandments is something serious and not a sin then i don't know what to say.

I think we have exhausted this topic well enough.

blessings

 2011/1/14 0:30Profile
bibleseeker
Member



Joined: 2011/1/21
Posts: 21


 Re: Times and laws

Hi Kwamenat
This is a great thread, you have covered the subject quite thoroughly. I would like to add a little more.
We read in Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Here in prophetic terms we discover that the fourth beast is a kingdom which shall "think to change times and laws". Now I ask, what laws and times would God be concerned about? His holy Law or mankinds laws? Obviously His Law. So what power has done this and succeeded? History tells us that Sunday worship was originally pagan sun worship because they believed life came from the sun. The man who enacted the first Sunday worship law was a sun worshipper. Today the beast power is happy to claim full responsibility for the changes in the Law of God. They claim they did. I give you some quotes which I simply googled.

"You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctified." James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), pp.72,73

"If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day, that is Saturday. In keeping Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church." Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the cardinal in a letter of Feb. 10, 1920.

"Have you not any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?" "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her, she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority" Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed. p. 174

How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays? By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church." Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)

"The Catholic Church,... by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday." The Catholic Mirror, official organ of Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

I hope you will verify these quotes for your own satisfaction. Man has boldly changed God's Law and says we are now under grace not law. I ask you to consider any one of the patriarchs. Do you think that they were saved by law or by grace? The bible clearly states Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: I understand this means everyone, even the patriarchs. Ask yourself, is Moses in heaven? The Bible tells us the answer in Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. The incident described shows us that God sent two individuals who had intimate knowledge of the struggles of mankind against sin to strengthen our Dear Savior for the terrible ordeal ahead of Him. Now, if Moses and Elias were saved by works of the law, then what need was there for Christ to die on the cross. If that was the case, then we could save ourselves just the same way. I certainly hope you can see they were saved by grace. So, we have this clear example. Hence, if they were saved by grace, it follows that the law wasn't in effect, right? But most Christians say that the Law of God was in effect at that time, that Jesus cancelled that requirement in the New Dispensation. How is that valid? Moses and Elias were saved by grace just the same as we must be. Who cancelled or changed it? I submit to you, the power that claims responsibility, the beast power identified down through the ages by Luther, Melancthon and many others.
Finally, what does God say about his Law. Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. And also Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Here in two places, the Word calls the Law perfect and the sure results of doing it. Yet somehow, God felt a need to cancel it by sending Jesus to die on the cross? Really?
Thankyou for reading. May God give all the true understanding of this most important subject.

 2011/1/22 4:06Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 1999
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

kwamenat: I know that the idea of the law being done away with has been discussed here quite a few times, and there are many good comments if you were to search for those posts. I would like to give you a few things to consider.

Many people try to put the ten commandments in a special category as distinct from what they call the "ceremonial" law and say that the ten commandments are to be kept even though the rest of the law is not to be kept. A few thoughts come to mind.

What is the purpose of the law? Paul is very clear on this point on several occasions. He says that the law made sin to appear exceedingly sinful. Romans 7. It took away any misconception that I had that I was OK because I was living a "good" life. In this same place he talks of how the law ministered death unto him. Not because it was unholy, but because it was holy and it condemned his own efforts to be so. In Gal. 3 Paul reiterates this point as well as pointing to the law's restraining work. It restrained sin until the promised seed should come. Notice the word "until". The restraining work of the law is done. You referred to the idea that some might feel the liberty to sin if it were not for a commandment to keep the ten commandments. This is the restraining work that Paul is referring to. This work is now in the hands of the Holy Spirit and no longer by the law. We were kept under the law, but only until the promised seed should come.

In 2 Cor. 3, Paul specifically refers to the ten commandments and calls them a ministration of death. It is the Spirit that gives life, not the law. I think this is where a lot of people miss it. It is the regeneration of our spirit at salvation that allows us to walk in the Spirit. The reason that I am not under any compulsion whatsoever to keep the law, including the ten commandments, is that the spirit of the law of God is now engraved on my heart. As I walk in the spirit, I will not only keep the ten commandments, but I will exceed even that. It is not that God has given us a higher standard to live up to now that we are born again. Rather it is that His Spirit live s through us so that we live His life, not our own any more. This does not encourage a believer to sin in any way shape or form.

As to Colossians 2:16 referring only to ceremonial sabbaths and not to the 7th day sabbath, I think that this is a bit of a stretch. The original Greek simply says "sabbath". It is the same Greek word used throughout the New Testament in reference to the 7th day. There is no other context surrounding this verse that speaks to its referring to the 7th day or not referring to the 7th day.

In Gal. 5 Paul tells the church there to stand fast in the liberty wherein Christ has made them free and not to be entangled again in the yoke of bondage to the law. This comes right after the discussion we read in chapter 4 in which the bondwoman is clearly pointed out as that portion of the law which was given on mount Sinai, the ten commandments specifically.

In Ephesians Paul tells us that Jesus abolished the law of commandments through His own flesh.

In Hebrews 7 Paul talks of the Melchisacek priesthood and says that for Christ to be after this order, the law had to be disanulled, done away with.

I would encourage you to look at all of these places in teh New Testament. I believe scripture teaches that we are right before God through what Jesus did, not through what Jesus did + the ten commandments or any other laws.

I knwo there are many who teach that we must still keep the ten commandments, but I believe they have missed a very key point that is reiterated throughout the entirety of the New Testament.

blessings kwamenat.


_________________
Travis

 2011/1/23 14:45Profile
Faith1
Member



Joined: 2011/1/23
Posts: 18


 Re: there remains a sabbath rest to the people of God

Genesis 2:2-3 KJV
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God rested on the seventh day, not full time. Nor do people rest full time. Most people have to work to provide the needs of life.

Hebrews 4 is stating that the people of God are given the same day of rest that existed from the beginning of creation and some do not accept it because of unbelief. It is also made very clear that Jesus did not name another day.

Hebrews 4:4-11 KJV
(4) For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
(5) And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
(6) Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
(7) Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
(8) For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
(9) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
(10) For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
(11) Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.


Isaiah 42:21 KJV
(21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

John 14:15 KJV
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Jesus kept the seventh day Sabbath, it was the only sabbath that existed during his time on earth.

Luke 4:14-16 KJV
(14) And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
(15) And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
(16) And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.


 2011/1/23 16:11Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus kept the seventh day Sabbath, it was the only sabbath that existed during his time on earth.



Jesus also kept the ENTIRE Law of Moses. That doesn't mean that we are still confined to its specific requirements either.


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Christopher

 2011/1/23 16:21Profile
HeartSong
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Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:


It is not a confinement, it is a release.

 2011/1/23 16:55Profile
Faith1
Member



Joined: 2011/1/23
Posts: 18


 Re: Jesus did not come to destroy the law.

Isaiah 42:21 KJV
(21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Matthew 5:17-18 KJV
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And all has not yet been fulfilled, Christ has not yet returned for the resurrection of the just and the defeat of the last enemy – death.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 KJV
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Heaven and earth will also pass away, which has not yet happened either.

2 Peter 3:12-13 KJV
(12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
(13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 22:14 KJV
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 2011/1/23 16:56Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Quote:

It is not a confinement, it is a release.



You may feel this way, but it is not presented as an option to many people. They have made it a LEGAL REQUIREMENT for people to go to Heaven. In many legalistic sects and cults (like the Seventh Day Adventists), you cannot be considered a part of the "true remnant" UNLESS you adhere to a legal observation of what they think the Sabbath is.

The New Testament is quite clear that we are FREE from any requirement to honor special days. You can fulfill them if you want...but it has NOTHING to do with your status as a true child of the Lord of the Sabbath.


_________________
Christopher

 2011/1/23 19:58Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3156


 Re:


I am not too concerned about what man thinks - that is a trap. All I care about is what the LORD thinks - that is the only safe place to be. I will pray that the LORD shows you His will in the matter and that He gives you perfect peace in it all. God bless you Chris.

 2011/1/23 20:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:

I am not too concerned about what man thinks - that is a trap. All I care about is what the LORD thinks - that is the only safe place to be.



I think that this is what all believers want -- to know the mind of Christ on the matter. Thus far, I personally feel that the Word of God is quite clear on this matter -- that we aren't bound to fulfill specific Old Covenant requirements regarding a special day. I don't think that our walk with God (or our status as a child of God) is dependent upon strict adherence to any specific provisions found in the Law of Moses.

I am not bothered by those who observe special days. I do think that there is something wrong when a local church, sect or denomination uses it as a condition for fellowship (or by which we can tell if someone is REALLY a believer or not).

Holiness is more a condition of the heart of a believer who longs desperately to fellowship with the Lord DAILY than whether or not someone walks a mile, cooks dinner, mows the grass on works an 8 hr shift on Saturday (or Sunday).


_________________
Christopher

 2011/1/23 20:46Profile





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