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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3394
East TN (for now)

 Re:

Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
~ Galatians 3:5


_________________
Lisa

 2011/1/8 9:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? ~ Galatians 3:5

Though I have read this before, I was stunned when I read it here now.

 2011/1/8 9:39









 Re: Saint or sinner




Hi andie,

You've asked an interesting question, which I’m addressing obliquely, because I believe you will dig out verses for yourself until you see the patterns. What I have to say is tiny compared with all relevant scriptures, but it seems a lot in one post. Apologies, but I hope it gives you some leads.

One great difference stands out, which is the externality of the operation of the Old Covenant with regard to ‘covering’ sin from God’s sight. All the pictures of ‘glory’ in the Old Testament foreshadow God’s desire to put HIS glory INSIDE us, through Christ having removed ‘the sin’, which prevented us from being able to be being filled with His Spirit, following baptism in the Holy Spirit at (our personal) Pentecost.

From Young’s Literal: Romans 8: 3 for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; 6 for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit--life and peace; 7 because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, 8 for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. 9 And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His; 10 and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness, 11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.'


I have not yet read the article by philologos in the Biblebase.com, and therefore am unsure the points he makes, particularly with reference to men removing the covering from their head before praying. I am familiar with the differing ways the instruction to women is interpreted by different analysts.

I would comment that God is looking on the heart, and whether a Christian woman is able to 'cover her head' with her hair, or with a cloth of some sort, would be (I believe), of less concern to God than whether she was holding faithful to Christ her Head, in her heart. I would say also, that unless she is holding Christ as her head, she will find it naturally difficult to submit to her husband, even if he is holding Christ as his head, and being a model Christian husband. We ALL must be yoked to Christ first and foremost.

The matter of 'glorification' in connection with suffering, is more to do with the calling to follow Christ at its most generic. It is nothing to do with gender. The requirements are the same regardless - to become a Christian, to be a Christian, to die a Christian.

It has been suggested by some ministers that one of the effects of the Fall, was the departure of the glory God had given man (as a covering), because he is in God's image, and this glory having vanished, they saw that they were naked. Percy Gutteridge explains this thought about 15 mins into his talk 'Father of Lights', which you can find elsewhere online. I believe he's onto something which recurs many times in scripture - the idea of 'covering' and, manifested 'glory' (without and within), as a sign of being in right relationship with God.

When you read how God appeared (Exodus 24:10) to Moses and others, after Moses had joined the people to the law which God had given, it seems sure that God had appeared to men before that – perhaps He had been visible to all, at least, to those who sought Him - who had found grace in His sight or eyes.

After the golden calf, He withdrew His visible presence and required the Israelites to remove their ornaments. These two things - what God did, and what He required of the people - characterise His disapproval of sin, and, that man must make changes which demonstrate contrition. In the New Testament though, there are spiritual ornaments for the bride of Christ for whom He died, that she may be without spot, wrinkle or blemish, a ‘glorious’ church – Eph 5:27.

Exodus 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary [tabernacle]; that I may dwell among them.

Exodus 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

Exodus 40:35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

v 34, the cloud was there to protect the eyes of the people from the immense glory of the Lord, and also, that God held true to His word to not appear to them directly any more.

v 35 indicates one unable to do his own will in the presence of the glory of God.

The tabernacle came to represent God's desire to dwell among (as it was then), His people. His presence with them was governed by important strictures, just as it is now for us who come to Christ, Who also complied with many strictures to show to His Father His fitness to die for us and the way which we must come, and go, as His followers. Through Christ we also are counted fit to suffer and die for the glory of God. Not only that, but when/if we sin, we feel our unworthiness to represent His name, and we feel that His glory (presence) has departed from us (albeit temporarily). Now, His tabernacle is our body - 2 Pet 1:13.

To us, His Spirit is given both to inhibit our will, and to enable and promote His will to be fulfilled in us. But we see Him face-to-face and live, if He has taken away the strength of sin in us and we continue wrestling to know Him - Gen 32. The fact that we DO see Him face-to-face is another indication that God has dealt with sin to His own satisfaction. Our part is to believe Him.

This initial paragraph from The Afterwards of the Life of Power, by Oswald Chambers which Greg posted last week, is helpful I think.

"Whither I go, thou canst not follow Me now; but thou shalt follow Me afterwards." John 13:36

"And when He had spoken this, He saith unto him, Follow Me." Three years before, Jesus had said - "Follow Me," and Peter had followed easily, the fascination of Jesus was upon him, he did not need the Holy Spirit to help him to do it. Then he came to the place where he denied Jesus, and his heart broke. Then he received the Holy Spirit, and now Jesus says again - "Follow Me." There is no figure in front now saving the Lord Jesus Christ. The first "Follow Me" had nothing mystical in it, it was an external following; now it is a following in internal martyrdom. (cf. John 21:18).'

Quote:
now it is a following in internal martyrdom

2 Cor 3:18 brings together the two truths of being able to look directly into the face of Jesus Christ, Him being a mirror (the Word of God) who by His Spirit reveals to us our flaws… how we fall short of His image. And, how this must lead to the mortification of the flesh (which according to Paul, we do with the help of the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:(11, 12), 13; 1 Peter 4:1), and the renewing of the spirit of our minds. (They go together.)

This kind of 'glorification' associates us with the Christ who died, and who rose again. As we consciously receive His death to our flesh life and receive His resurrection life which follows, He is glorified in us visibly to others. This is not something we see in ourselves. Oswald Chambers names the process of choosing aright day by day, keeping ourselves unto God and obeying Him, 'Continuous Conversion', and he well describes elsewhere, the surprise we feel sometimes when God reveals whole tracts of our thinking (for instance) which do not glorify Him and from which by His grace we must cease. OC also says that the moment we think we’re humble, we’ve lost any humility we had. A saint must not be continually examining his whiteness to see how holy he has become, (my paraphrasing).

I believe Eph 3:2 and 7 define the grace of God at work in the life of Paul. After he was born again, he could no longer hate Christians, work with hostile Pharisees to stamp out churches, or keep himself separate from lost Gentiles - which all had been outworkings of unregenerate Jewish thinking. Now, the GRACE of God enabled him to value the souls of men by an entirely different value system - the blood of Christ - AND to live out those changed attitudes day by day. These changes glorified God, and others could see it - Phil 3.

2 Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

1 Cor 1:28 '... and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.


I'm not sure there is a way to separate the internal glory from the external glory under the New Covenant, and it can be argued that Adam and Eve had no internal glory at all - that their state of innocence covered by the glory God had given them, was sufficient - but I see that the 'glorification' I had in mind was to do with man's relationship to God through Christ. Human relationships do matter greatly, and John in his first epistle returns to them again and again as the indicator of where a person is in relation to God.

Without doubt, the one who is submitted to God as Jesus submitted to His Father, will be called upon to demonstrate his association with Christ's death - as a lifestyle. By this he qualifies to become a son of God, showing God’s character to brethren and the world, competent to act with God's authority and power in the spiritual realm.

Returning to marriage: it is given to man per se. God has given headship to males within the natural order. For Adam, this included taking responsibility both for Eve's confusion and his own disobedience. It is possible for a marriage wherein is mutual love and respect, to be very sound naturally and scripturally, without either spouse being a Christian. That's why Paul's exhortations at the end of Ephesians 5 are very important for Christians, and why it was necessary for him to clarify to the Corinthian church where spiritual authority lay when the wife had become a Christian but the husband had not. There is also the tricky matter of the calling of God on a life, and whether a Christian husband is willing to obey God to the extent God invites him, or, he is not. Men and women of God who are married may have some very difficult decisions to make in the light of simple verses such as

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Romans 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.




 2011/1/8 10:17
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

Quote:
When you say "God has given us His Laws". Which laws are we to observe and put into practice?



I am referring to the laws for determining the truth as first given to Moses that are repeated by Jesus and the Apostles. For example the phrase 'through two or three witnesses every truth shall be established" is the same law given to Moses to determining the innocence or guilt of a person....... just worded a little bit different.

Same thing with "no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation" is just a NT version of the OT law that a single witness was not acceptable.

Isaiah 28 and in particular verses 9-13 are a summary of how the laws are to be applied to gain the knowledge that God would have us know.

Christians following the OT Laws that were given to the Jews as far as our conduct goes is not what the law is for. The laws are to be our schoolteacher to guide us into the fulness of Christ being formed in us rather than us worrying about what we eat or wear etc etc.

IMO for our personal everyday lifestyle, other than the ten commandments and the couple of additional ones given to us by Jesus are all that I believe we are to as you say "observe and put into practice"

If I sound a little evasive I apologize but I am bound by a contract not to go down paths that are covered in a book due out this spring.

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/8 11:54Profile









 Re:

Thanks Doug for explaining that I think I understand where your coming from.

I wish to comment on this,

"The laws are to be our schoolteacher to guide us into the fullness of Christ being formed in us rather than us worrying about what we eat or wear etc etc."

Though I know what you are saying, perhaps the wording could be changed a wee bit.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law WAS our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Therefore we are not guided by the School Master nor are we under it. It's purpose was to show that I am a sinner and in need of what Jesus accomplished for us on the cross in fulfilling the law and providing redemption.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh.

 2011/1/8 13:04
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:



Quote:
For instance, the law WAS not "is" our schoolmaster



Actually the law can take us far deeper than just identifying sin. When used In conjuction with the Holy Spirit it is the beginning and ending for how all doctrines can be proved or disproved.

Look at it this way....... if the law was no longer useful for our edification Jesus would have never said that those who learn the law and become able to teach it will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven while those who fail at learning it will become the least in His Kingdom.

Matt. 5: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I have something I wrote a few year back that is still used by some websites so I am comfortable with sharing it . It is only the first step of many that are found within the Laws given to Moses that God gave to us for our edification. I will get it posted pretty soon.

Those who come to understand it are blessed and on their way to the knowledge that Daniel spoke of that would be increased in the latter days. On the other hand those who do not miss out on much of what God has reserved for those who love Him.

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/8 15:09Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner


What of Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

?


2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God,

and [is] profitable

for doctrine,

for reproof,

for correction,

for instruction in righteousness:


2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.





 2011/1/8 16:02









 Re:

Alive to God,

Thank-you! That was very helpful to me. I will look at those other teachings you have recommended. I really appreciate you taking the time to write that. I won't comment more at this stage here as
I've kind of veered of topic for this thread.

lesserlight,

I agree with you that while we are under the convenant of Jesus Christ, there are much deeper teachings in the law of moses than the simple fact that we are sinners. I believe every law, not just the 10 commandments has something to teach us.

 2011/1/8 16:26
Lesserlight
Member



Joined: 2010/9/19
Posts: 134


 Re:

AtG said

Quote:
What of Romans 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.



Christ is the "end" of the law as in the end of a race.... Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ. As Christ is formed in us He fulfills the law today just as He did 2000 year ago, thus the Apostles expressed the law

Look at it this way ........If what is being formed in us is not fulfilling the law then what is being formed in us is not Christ!

Quote:
lesserlight,

I agree with you that while we are under the convenant of Jesus Christ, there are much deeper teachings in the law of moses than the simple fact that we are sinners. I believe every law, not just the 10 commandments has something to teach us.




Amen Andy......... Knowledge of the law gave David the keys to the kingdom and will do the same for us....... what I shared in that article is just the tip of an iceberg

Blessings

Doug

 2011/1/9 5:16Profile









 Re: Saint or sinner


Hi Doug,

Quote:
Christ is the "end" of the law as in the end of a race.... Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ. As Christ is formed in us He fulfills the law today just as He did 2000 year ago, thus the Apostles expressed the law

Look at it this way ........If what is being formed in us is not fulfilling the law then what is being formed in us is not Christ!

I don't know what other readers make of this kind of statement, but I hope some of them will respond, so it doesn't look like I'm the only person who feels you are tangling up so many ideas in short sentences, that what you write looks like you're trying to bounce a new religion into existence, off the platform of biblical and historic Christianity.

'as in the end of a race' just doesn't makes sense. There is a race, but it's not directly about the law which Jesus fulfilled, of which Paul says 'For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

Clearly, if CHRIST is our righteousness, the law has been superseded. This is the message across the whole epistle to the Hebrews.

Your other statement I wish to reject at face value, because you said nothing which implies you understand its implications, is

Quote:
Had Jesus not fulfilled the Law He would have never become the Christ.

What this sentence says is, that you don't believe 'Jesus' was 'the Christ', from His birth.

That may not be what you intended to say, but please think very carefully about the reason angels announced His birth to shepherds, and a new star appeared in the sky to lead wise men to Him, and, why Herod was willing to order a massacre of toddlers, before defending that sentence in its entirety.

 2011/1/9 6:29





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