| Re: |
There is nothing to say that the instructions Paul gave to Timothy were for those who were not also in full-time gainful employment.
Those who are in full-time gainful employment do not have the requirement to hold to all that Paul set forth to those in leadership positions. It would be good and proper if they did hold to them all. Yet they are not required by Paul to do so. Whereas a Bishop, Elder or Pastor is.
All the requirements and exortation below are a 'must' for Bishops, Elders or Pastors yet they are all not requirement for everyone else:
1 Timothy 3:2 - respectable, hospitable, able to teach
1 Timothy 3:3 - not quarrelsome
1 Timothy 3:4 - manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect
1 Timothy 3:5 - must not be a recent convert
1 Timothy 3:6 - a good reputation with outsiders
Againg someone who is
Quote: should do all of these things yet they are not under a yoke to do them whereas a Overseer of an expression of the Body of Christ is. So certain instruction is directed at leaders. It just plain and straight forward to see that when you read Timothy and other passages where Paul is speaking specifically to leaders.
in full-time gainful employment
| 2010/11/27 18:42||Profile|
| Re: For Pastors Only - Special Encouraging Videos|
So certain instruction is directed at leaders. It just plain and straight forward to see that when you read Timothy and other passages where Paul is speaking specifically to leaders.
Yes, he is speaking specifically to leaders. My point was, there is no requirement upon a leader to give up his day job. Paul didn't give up his completely.
| 2010/11/27 18:55|
| Re: |
That is correct. Yet what does that have to do with the thread. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said.
However remember Paul worked with His hands so as to not bring reproach against the gospel. He made it very clear that the Church should have supported him. It is right and proper for this to be so. Yet He did not 'use' that power over the Church even though it belonged to him. It is right for a servant of God to 'live of the gospel' if at all possible. This is the Lords intention for those who serve fulltime. Yet if that is not possible then yes the servant of the Lord should do what he needs to do to sustain himself even though the Lord will see to it that he is taken care of.
| 2010/11/27 19:22||Profile|
| Re: |
Many have known nothing but the 'credentialed minister' model.
I realize that, and if that's who they are reaching out to, fine. But at the same time aren't they perpetuating something, a kind of church order, that is really not God's order... and that He is shaking?
The "one man at the helm" kind of structure, I mean, which is the foundation of church as we know it.
"Pastor burnout" is a serious problem among professional pastors, and TSC has even held conventions to address the issue.
But is the one-man-in-leadership model even scriptural in the first place? Maybe that's where the problem lies in the first place. It's not scriptural.
And on top of that, neither is "credentialed ministry" scriptural.
I know what they mean by it: Bible school credentials.
Chapter and verse, please? Am I asking too much of Bible believing Christians to ask for this?
The ministries I have been most influenced by over the years were working men who never saw the inside of a Bible school.
They held down an ordinarly job. Yet at the same time I would say they were men in "full time ministry."
They got their credentials in a different kind of school.
...At the same time I realize that many godly pastors and teachers got their credentials in a Bible school of some kind. I know there are a lot of wonderful men in the church system as we know it in our day. They love the Lord. I honour and respect them.
...But a great change is in the Wind.
| 2010/11/27 19:25||Profile|
| Re: For Pastors Only - Special Encouraging Videos|
AD, fair points you make, of course.
The reason 'pastors' often give for not changing to 'body ministry', is that their congregations are too large.
I think there is another difficulty, which is the model which brings the unsaved into the church meeting. This isn't a biblical model either.
It takes a very watchful eye and ear, and the Holy Spirit, to 'manage' the fact that not everyone who wants to share, actually knows the Lord. Folk who grew up in church, also without having been converted, add to the unmanageabilty of that mixed multitude.
'An enemy hath done this.'
| 2010/11/27 19:37|
| Re: For Pastors Only - Special Encouraging Videos|
Quote:I may be misunderstanding you, also. :-)
Maybe I am misunderstanding what you said.
I thought you were suggesting that everyone who Timothy was to ordain as an elder, deacon or bishop, was to be a full time church worker, who didn't have a day job.
I do realise that some elders are called to be full time, and I realise also that some of those Timothy ordained may have been full time, but this is not clear from the text.
There is no reason to assume that they stopped their day jobs purely because they had been called into a certain relationship with the members of the flock of which they were part.
Has that clarified what was in my mindd?
| 2010/11/27 19:43|
| Re: |
there is an extra level of discouragment and satanic opposition against those that labour fulltime.
In some ways you are right about the satanic opposition and I will tell you why much of it is brought on by the very nature of this man made ecclesiastical/clergy system.
But, the non-fulltime Christian individual is subject to just as intense spiritual battle if not more. Spiritual battles are not measured by either "fulltime" or "part time" work for the Lord. Spiritual battles have everything to do with obedience to Christ. Being a "fulltime" worker as you say, is not necessarily synonymous with obedience to Christ. And I do agree with the brother or sister that said, "We are all full-time in Christian ministry".
I actually feel sorry for the modern day "Pastor". Why? Because his is a calling that God has not called them to. It does not resemble at all the gifting of pastor in the NT. Today's Pastor is filling a calling that was made by man and it is made to direct men, to administrate men and sadly to please men.
God does not call anyone to be OVER anyone. And God does not call us to be IN CHARGE of His Church. That has brought us problems in the past and still does. There already is One who is in charge. His name is Jesus Christ.
Funny how the concept of Jesus Christ is great for apologetics, and He is real good for Evangelism, and especially good for worship. But tell someone that Jesus Christ wants to lead a meeting and they will look at you dumbfounded. Yep, dumbfounded. You see, they have been using the concept of Jesus Christ for various activities in their church life, but in all of it, man is definitely in charge. So when you say, let's get together and let the Lord start the meeting, propel the meeting and end the meeting, they think you have gone bonkers. That is not how they have been trained in Bible School. Men have been trained to run the whole show, provide all the answers to the sheep, minister to their every need and provide direction for them. They have been certified. They have a degree.
I clicked on the link and found these curious statements:
"There seems to be a need for spiritual encouragement among ministers today...
If you are:
A minister in charge of a church.
<< In charge of a church??? >>
A leader having recognized pastoral care over a group of people.
<< Over a group of people??? >>
A credentialed minister currently without a congregation.
<< Credentialed??? >>
A Bible college student or minister in training.
<< Bible college??? >>"
There is not to be any one man or group of men who are tasked with being "in charge" of hundreds or thousands.
Do you want to know why those in professional paid ministry have such a tough time? Why they seemed to be attacked with such an onslaught of the powers of darkness?
It is because they have set themselves up above the people of God (only one person should be there) and the people of God have been trained implicitly or explicitly to looke to them. Since they are paid from the church payment (tax/tithe) system the people want to see something for their money. Does that sound unspiritual? Well, it is the system than man has made by borrowing ideas from the Bible and from the world. When you have these "Pastor Only" gatherings you are perpetuating man's system.
Here are some reasons that there is so much pastor burnout in the worldly, religious, unscriptural church.
Number 1: They are trying to maintain a calling and position that is not in the Word of God, at least not the way it is described and walked in today.
Number 2: They have to work hard to maintain their position "above" the sheep. Your link says "over a group of people", so that means the pastor is above them.
When you try to maintain a position, job title, employment, or whatever you want to call it, you cannot preach the whole counsel of God's Word. WHY? Because you would have to step down from your pulpit and take a seat as a brother with the brothers. Or, on the other hand, if you preached the whole counsel of God, your congregation just might up and leave and start meeting in homes instead of paying the big church mortgage, paving the parking lots, coming to the MAN every Wednesday and Sunday to be spoon fed and paying salaries of people that are doing things that the common everyday brother and sister can and should be doing.
There are house churches today, with elders who work fulltime jobs. We are way off track, today. We have given special status and privileges to a handful of men (relatively speaking) over a multitude of people.
Number 3. No one has any special status or special calling except Jesus Christ. And whenever you take His place amongst His people you will not be blessed with peace. I repeat, you will not be blessed with peace.
Number 4. When you elevate yourself above the brethren and set yourself up as the Pastor (Shepherd) of the sheep, you are implicitly telling everyone that if you don't have the answer for their troubles you know where to get the answer. Therefore, everyone is always looking to you for answers. You don't want it that way, but by virtue of raising yourself up above the brethren, it just happens that they look to you. They depend on you.
Number 5. People are paying you (tithe = payment system = to meet the monthly budget = not living by faith) and expect you to listen to their requests.
Now, here is where the powers of darkness really get involved. When you have many people in your "church" looking to you and paying you a salary, they have certain expectations of you just as you have certain expectations of them. And this is where you get pulled and tugged in many different directions. And you find yourself wanting to please some people (the big tithers) and it is just impossible to please everyone. Then the ones you can't or don't please get offended and will be upset with you because they don't think you are being fair. And the truth of the matter is that they are right. You are not being fair. It is impossible to grant everyone's request isn't it? You want to be fair but find it hard to turn down the big tithers, because, afterall, they pay your salary.
And you take all of this home and you cannot get it off of your mind (the offended people) and it wreaks havoc in your marriage, and your kids wander away from the Lord because they see what a hypocrite you are when you talk about the church members and get angry with them. Yet, your kids always hear you preach about the fruit of the spirit to your congregaion.
So all these "curses" are always coming at you from the congregation and it gets to the point where you just want to hang out with the staff. When you have get togethers at your house, you invite the elders, the worship team, the assistant pastor, because afterall, they understand you and what you are going through. You have great fellowship with the church staff, but never invite any of the people that "complain" or wish something was done another way, over to your house, or to a picnic or TO A MEETING FOR PASTORS ONLY.
This is what we have done today. We use the Bible and the concept of Jesus Christ to create our own neat little religious system that we can make a living at. And everything would be just great if everyone would stop complaining and just do what I say. Ahhhh, that would be the good life. We would really get some things done for the kingdom of God, now!
Well, Pastor, let me tell you something. Generals in armies are allowed to order their men around and tell them what to do. Their men will carry out their orders and even die for their General. The men cannot talk back or be insubordinate and must carry out all the General's orders.
Is this how you would like your church members to act?
Just do what I say? Afterall, I have been trained in the best seminary and graduated at the top of my class. I am eloquent, my sermons are grammatically correct and carry the best punctuation and I always 2-3 really good stories to make you laugh and put you at ease. I have been complimented many times by some of the most influential men that no one can preach like me. My people are proud to call me their pastor because I do not embarrass them with my lack of education and etiquette. This is why I am above you, if you must know, now take a seat and listen to the Word of the Lord.
You know people, you are so close to the forest you cannot even see the trees.
This is not the way it is in the NT. It does not surprise me at all that Institutional Pastors are dropping left and right. It is their system, they created it but it only works if ALL the people pretty much stop reading their bibles and just listen to the Man (the pastor). And when that does not happen, there is no end of problems to the Pastor. There ends up being a love/hate relationship between the pastor and the sheep. The pastor does not want to hang out with the sheep, but the sheep would like to hang out with the pastor. But that does not happen very often. The Emperor really has no clothes (meaning the present religious system). Start reading your Bible and get free from the fear of man and you can see through all of these man-made shenanigans.
This explains why there are over 15,000 church splits a year and 400-500 pastors burning out and leaving the "ministry". Actually, that is a good thing. God has to grind us down until we stop everything and start to see things His way.
Now, doesn't the Bible say, "How good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity"?
Being with the brethren is suppose to be a place of rest and repose. So why do Pastors have to take off and be with other Pastors? Why can't he receive mutual beneficient fellowship and ministry from the brethren that he is in fellowship with? Because there are too many unhealed offenses and hardening of hearts.
So, if the light within us is darkness, then how dark is that light? In other words, where is the pleasantness of dwelling with brethren? Where is the rest and repose of being with the Church with Christ in it's midst. It's not there! You cannot find it in man's system where church splits are in the thousands and pastors actually stay away from their sheep (pastor them from the pulpit, but no intimate fellowship).
May the Lord help us to see Him as not just a concept to use in building our kingdom, evangelizing, apologetics, or even using Him for worship. May He help us to see Him as REAL and ALIVE in our midst, leading, guiding, ministering and sustaining His Church by HIS LIFE. And may we see the mutuality of all brothers and sisters and understand that God has given us all a heart to know Him, a heart to house Him and a voice to extol Him in the midst of the congregation.
| 2010/11/27 20:25|
| Re: |
I made a small correction but it has great meaning.
I erroneously said that "his is a calling that God has called them to" and meant to say "has not called them to".
The church has become so perverted in it's form that it resembles a multi-level marketing scheme today. Even in the smallest of churches because they all use the same methods of man to "be in charge" of the church and "run" things. Their payment system of the tithe which excuses them from living a life of faith for instance. Actually, they have convinced the congregation that they are living by faith, by reporting the churches financial needs on a regular basis and then saying "by faith, we believe that we will meet this months budget". Such a sad, sad, sham.
Pastor, it would be best if you stepped down, be a brother, get a job and feel better about yourself and your christian walk. Be a father to your kids and a husband to your wife and stop trying to take the Lord's place in the midst of His people. And most of all, be at peace with your brothers and sisters and enjoy the unity of the spirit.
You see all these problems come when someone wants to elevate themselves above God's people and be in charge.
Read Ezekiel 34. I think all this burnout of pastors is judgement from God just as He talked about it in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. This is the wind of destruction that the Lord talked about that He would bring against the shepherds.
| 2010/11/27 20:33|
| Re: |
I believe that you have a lot of knowledge of the word and a reasonable ability to minister to others. I also appreciate much of what you are saying but I believe that we must be more aware of edifying others and the effect of ministering Christ to everyone without appearing to be superior in our knowledge over others.
I believe you are well versed in the bible and have gained a lot of wisdom but so has David Wilkerson. There are many in the body of Christ because of his ministry and the Lord has used him to edify multitudes of believers. He is not perfect yet but neither are we. I believe we should be careful how we criticize or judge our brethren because the same judgment we use will be measured back to us.
Also, I have notice that you are very much against one man over another man but do you not think that you are stating your knowledge as being superior to the Leadership of TSC. And in criticizing them in what they are doing, are you saying that the Lord is showing you to do this.
Blessings to you!
| 2010/11/27 21:02||Profile|
| Re: |
Ok. I see where there may have been a little misscommunication on my part. Yea I didnt mean to suggest that all leaders were to hold a fulltime position in their leadership. Because as you mentioned Paul himself did work from time to time with his own hands. But I think Paul does make it clear that if someone is called to fulltime service as he was then if at all possible they should be supported by those who they are serving. yet it that doesnt happen they can build tents.
My point was just to say that those who are called to that level of leadership will have requirements and exortations from the Lord that others will not have. That was the premise of my statements. Because some took offense to the 'Pastors only' thing. I think that can lead to Catholic mindset of heiarchy but there is truth in it.
| 2010/11/27 22:29||Profile|