I am not sure I understand what you imply by choosing the word mode.
I just meant 'modes' of thinking. I wasn't sure if you were advocating one mode of thinking ie 'prophetic thinking' against another ie 'Berean thinking'.
| 2004/11/7 13:46||Profile|
The two major categories would be:
1. The Berean thinking could also be labelled deductive thinking or prophetic thinking.
An addition to make here is the much so called old fashioned theological thinking is very prophetic simply because it follows Gods ways in a straight manner.
This category is, of course, the one to prefer. The Lord produces an invitation, Let us reason.
2. The seductive thinking manipulative, evasive, and dodging, attributes far away from the clarity and distinctiveness produced by the presence of the Holy Spirit.
This second category is far too often displayed and experienced in the sessions held by the modern so called prophets.
| 2004/11/7 13:59||Profile|
Quote:OK I see what you mean in that context. I have have always been uncomfortable when the contemporary 'prophetic' streams tie themselves in to an underlying eschatology. This is my anxiety with the old Manifested Sons 'prophetic'. It emerged again through the Kansas City Prophets and was endorsed by John Wimber with predictions of Europe wide revival beginning in the UK at a specific date; now long in the past. It surfaced again in the UK with The Call, which also fizzled like a spent rocket. These all 'prophesied' a final generation/omega man and attendent ministries which would be greater than any that had preceeded them and would usher in the Lord's coming.
1. The Berean thinking could also be labelled deductive thinking or prophetic thinking.
This concern is my underlying discomfort with the ministry of Art Katz; it has an eschatological underpinning which leaves me unconvinced, and yet the assumption that such an eschatology is correct is the basis for so much of what is said.
I become anxious too when I see revival preached with an eschatological foundation.
The teaching of last things is so speculative and yet refusal to sign on the line can exclude folk from evangelical missionary socities. I have, in the past, been involved with leaders who would say 'last year what the Lord was saying to the church was...' and 'this year God's word to the church is...'. These statments leave me stone cold. It is really a hidden arrogance; most of 'the church' is not on the web and doesn't link into the prophetic network. No-one can make a statement that follows 'the church will.. or is' unless they can prove that it relates to the smallest group of God's people gathered under a tree in Malawi or hiding in a cellar in Irag.
| 2004/11/7 14:35||Profile|
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
No-one can make a statement that follows 'the church will.. or is' unless they can prove that it relates to the smallest group of God's people gathered under a tree in Malawi or hiding in a cellar in Iraq.
And that is what church is for them, truely amazing.
It may be that in every situation God needs men of the Isachar type. Who understand the times and know what the right thing to do is.1 Chronicles 12:32
| 2004/11/7 16:07||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
The teaching of last things is so speculative
and yet refusal to sign on the line can exclude folk from evangelical missionary socities. I have, in the past, been involved with leaders who would say 'last year what the Lord was saying to the church was...' and 'this year God's word to the church is...'. These statments leave me stone cold.
It is really a hidden arrogance; most of 'the church' is not on the web and doesn't link into the prophetic network. No-one can make a statement that follows 'the church will.. or is' unless they can prove that it relates to the smallest group of God's people gathered under a tree in Malawi or hiding in a cellar in Irag.
Bingo! Well said Ron and the second anyone begins to question it...
| 2004/11/8 0:32||Profile|
"While [Bickle] accepts this phenonema, Joyner rejects it."
Where do you find this?
There is a reference to soberness in one of the Final Quest series...will find and get back
(may take a while:-)).
| 2004/11/8 5:48||Profile|
This is my anxiety with the old Manifested Sons 'prophetic'. It emerged again through the Kansas City Prophets
As I learn more about what was going on in the early days of the KC Prophets I find that in the beginning (early 1980's) God had allegedly dealt with Mike Bickle that God was going to send a revival of repentance to this nation by the use of revivalist type ministers as we have come to know the Whitfield's, Wesley's, and Finney's. The revival was to be characterized by holiness of heart, unwavering faith, continual prayer, and extravagent giving to the poor. After several hundred people gathered for 21 days of fasting and prayer many other people started to move to Kansas City from around the nation, some of whom I have personally met in the last 9 months. At some point in about 3 or 4 years everything went crazy. I am told that the enemy had a 3 year plan to take the entire revival out, and take it out he did. We could stop here and argue that a God sent revival would not be thwarted, but God is not willing that any should perish also, yet many do. People, influenced by their own motives, somehow came in and it was all made shipwreck, so I am told.
Keep in mind this whole movement went down less than 5 miles from where I lived, roughly, from 1981 to 1992 and I only ever heard 1 story out the place and it was horrendous. My wife attended the Assemblies of God Church right next door (maybe 150 yards away) as a teenager and knew nothing about what was happening there either. Obviously something bad started to happen because a multitude of ministers in this city had to deal with the wrecked lives of people who were messed up after the whole thing went off the road.
Now there are many thousands of people that are to some degree or another messed up from it all. When you give a false prophesy to a person it can do some serious damage. People are too infatuated with the supernatural in this movement and are seeking mystical experiences and all sorts of weird stuff in my humble opinion. It is a counterfeit form of revival that makes people thing God is among them, when in reality in some cases the people are entertaining seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Lies are spoken in hypocrisy by people who cannot cease from sin.
The whole term "Prophet" has been blasphemed. As I think about Bro. Ron's etymological reasoning I have to say that the term "prophet" must also have a history. As I read the prophets and their lives they are people who walked close to God and were skilled in His word. God speaks to them in a dream or a vision and calls them to be His mouthpiece. It is not an office that you can call yourself to. Ravinhill said the prophet is a tragic figure. Jeremiah was told to tear down and then plant and build up. These KC prophets wanted to 'plant' and 'build up' but they did not want to tear down. They wanted to perform their own popular agenda- which is exactly what the false peophets did in Jeremiah's time. The degree to which you compromise the message of repentance will be the degree to which you allow the enemy to come in no matter who you are as a minister. The sword has to be uncompromisingly sharp- for the extent to which it is dulled down to tickle ears will be the extent to which disaster looms. As wicked as this generation is I will believe no so called prophet that is not proclaiming repentance crying loud and sparing not! Forget the flakey stuff. Forget the falsehood. We need to hear a mandate- REPENT!
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/8 8:06||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Sweep them where you will, in private, but don't speak authoritatively, conclusively, and judgmentally in public based on your opinoins. I'm using "you" here not specific to you Mike. Who are we to close doors God has left open? Talk about lack of reverence.
To point out dangerous assumptions is not authoritative nor judge mental. What is at issue is characteristics and yes 'precedence'. [i] In my opinion[/i]...
Do a serious study of angels and see if you can extract any character traits that would give any precedence for this 'possibility'. There are principles in scripture that are logical to draw inference from. One of them is 'beware'.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit says clearly that in the last times some people will abandon the faith by following deceitful spirits, the teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 and the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences have been burned by a hot iron.
1Jo 4:1 Dear friends, stop believing every spirit. Instead, test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2Ti 3:1 You must realize, however, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 unfeeling, uncooperative, slanderous, degenerate, brutal, hateful of what is good,
2Ti 3:4 traitors, reckless, conceited, and lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.
2Ti 3:5 They will hold to an outward form of godliness but deny its power. Stay away from such people.
2Ti 3:6 For some of these men go into homes and deceive foolish women who are burdened with sins and swayed by all kinds of desires.
2Ti 3:7 These women are always studying but are never able to arrive at a full knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and their faith is a counterfeit.
2Ti 3:9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those two men, their stupidity will be plain to everyone.
2Ti 3:10 But you have observed my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance,
2Ti 3:11 and my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me in Antioch, Iconium, and Lystra. What persecutions I endured! Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.
2Ti 3:12 Indeed, all who want to live a godly life in union with Christ Jesus will be persecuted.
2Ti 3:13 But evil people and impostors will go from bad to worse as they deceive others and are themselves deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and found to be true, because you know from whom you learned it.
2Ti 3:15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to give you the wisdom you need for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their doom will match their deeds!
Don't get the wrong idea, not attempting to use these as 'proof text's' but to simply point out the principle that is inherent.
The idea of the Berean's being 'open minded' is also very suspect.
Act 17:11 -
More noble than those (eugenesteroi tōn). Comparative form of eugenēs, old and common adjective, but in N.T. only here and Luk_19:12; 1Co_1:26. Followed by ablative case tōn as often after the comparative.
With all readiness of mind (meta pāsēs prothumias). Old word from prothumos (pro, thumos) and means eagerness, rushing forward. In the N.T. only here and 2Co_8:11-19; 2Co_9:2. In Thessalonica many of the Jews out of pride and prejudice refused to listen. Here the Jews joyfully welcomed the two Jewish visitors.
Examining the Scriptures daily (kath' hēmeran anakrinontes tas graphas). Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves. In Scotland people have the Bible open on the preacher as he expounds the passage, a fine habit worth imitating.
Whether these things were so (ei echoi tauta houtōs). Literally, if these things had it thus. The present optative in the indirect question represents an original present indicative as in Luk_1:29 (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1043f.). This use of ei with the optative may be looked at as the condition of the fourth class (undetermined with less likelihood of determination) as in Act_17:27; Act_20:16; Act_24:19; Act_27:12 (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1021). The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Pauls preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain (Hovey).
Robertson's Word Pictures
I certainly don't get the idea that if they couldn't find something in scripture they would accept it, but just the opposite.
Quote: None, I can't put my faith in anything but Jesus and that IS NOT a dig at you brother.
How much faith do you put in "common sense"?
1. To have a joint right with others in common ground.
2. To board together; to eat at a table in common.
SENSE, n.[/b] [from L. sensus, from sentio, to feel or perceive.]
1. The faculty of the soul by which it perceives external objects by means of impressions made on certain organs of the boky.
Sense is a branch of perception. the five senses of animals are sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste.
2. Sensation; perception by the senses.
3. Perception by the intellect; apprehension; discernment.
4. Sensibility; quickness or acuteness of perception.
5. Understanding; soundness of faculties; strength of natural reason.
Opprest nature sleeps;
This rest might yet have balm'd thy broken senses. Shak.
6. Reason; reasonable or rational meaning.
He raves; his words are loose
As heaps of sand, and scattering wide from sense. Dryden.
7. Opinion; notion; judgement.
I speak my private but impartial sense
With freedom. Roscommon.
8. Consciousness; conviction; as a due sense of our weakness or sinfulness.
9. Moral perception.
Some are so hardened in wickedness, as to have no sense of the most friendly offices.
10. Meaning; important; signification; as the true sense of words or phrases. In interpretation, we are to examine whether words are to be understood in a literal or figurative sense. So we speak of a legal sense, a grammatical sense, an historical sense, &c.
[b]Common sense, that power of the mind which, by a kind of instinct, or a short process of reasoning, perceives truth, the relation of things, cause and effect, &c. and hence enables the possessor to discern what is right, useful, expedient, or proper, and adopt the best meams to accomplish his purpose. This power seems to be the gift of nature, improved by experience and observation.[/b]
Moral sense, a determination of the mind to be pleased with the contemplation of those effections, actions or characters of rational agents, which are called good or virtuous.
I am going to stick with the Scriptures. If they leave an open door, I'm not going to shut it. That doesn't mean I'm going to accept everything that comes my way. I may have to reserve judgment indefinately; throw it into the file labeled "mystery" or "?" in my mind.
And I can believe whatever I want in private. But I certainly don't trust in opinions as final authority.
Believing whatever you want, which of course is everyones 'right', but Todd you didn't reserve that 'right' in private in this case.
The crux of this seems to be that one of us is screaming "FIRE!" and the other is saying "What fire?" Maybe we both need to be hosed down...Neither one of us is an 'final authority'.
Frankly could care less how "I" am receieved or judged or if this is all mere 'opinion', misconstrued as 'authoritative' or even if this is considered 'judgmental'. This IS in the publics view and if I have to go down in a hail of stones for speaking up to protect the flock from deception and error, to stay away from the same things that took years for me to untangle, unlearn...If erring on the side of caution is 'closing the door', so be it, let the stones fly.
Now having said all that, let me add this.
I most certainly could be wrong. I am a muddy kind of guy trying to grasp all that there is to this walk of faith. To give mere nice sentiments and disguise them as Christian charity while I harbor anger towards my brother would make me a hypocrite. Being that this is being dissected in front of the public then what needs to be said also needs to be clarified here.
Have spoken to Todd in private and see no need to disclose anything that doesn't pertain to this 'discussion'. What I said earlier I meant. I love him as my brother in Christ. By no means is any of this an attack on him personally. Right there is a problem that is unfortunate and likely part of our condition. We can naturally gravitate towards a "I am right, you are wrong mentality" in our dealings with one another or at least that is often how it is seen. And to complicate matters most certainly we add that element unaware and I am just as sure I may have through all this because the emotions get stirred and...
Ravi Zacharias has a real good way of putting things I thought in this regard. In a nut shell it's:
"In summary, level one concerns logic, level two is based on feeling, and level three is where all is applied to reality."
[url=http://www.rzim.org/publications/jttran.php?jtcode=JT03FRZ]Living an Apologetic Life[/url]
Really what it boils down to is a disagreement in what is being [i]said[/i] not in the person who is saying it. Without any doubt I know Todd loves the Lord with all his heart as I do and everyone else here (and if you don't...well that's another issue). So if I have in my emotional state slighted you brother, made you to look bad I am sorry and confess it here before all, it was not my intention. It is obvious that I have a particular bent towards protecting which stems out of my own personal experience, likely over do it at times and don't always have time to sort through whether or not I am being 'kind' in how I should approach these things.
I am sure if we were able to sit down face to face and open up the scriptures together, work through these things we both could learn much from each other.
My apologies Todd, it's not about us.
All this does beg the question which seems to lie at the root of much of these modern day 'movements' and the like...
What is the proper way of reading scripture? Is it an 'open door' as Todd stated if it doesn't necessarily 'violate scripture'? Or is it logical to draw from principles and precedence that has already been established and go no further? Not trying to make this another argument, nor am I under the illusion that it is all that cut and dry, but what is more prudent?
| 2004/11/8 8:25||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
Wow, thanks Robert.
Being this close to it gives precedence over whatever mere speculation we all might have one way or the other.
It's the damage, the fallout that is and has always been my concern.
| 2004/11/8 8:39||Profile|
It's the damage, the fallout that is and has always been my concern.
Hi Bro. Mike,
I met a couple several months ago that are so hurt that they won't even consider coming back to church. They are ultra out-of-Church Christians. As I understand it and heard just yesterday, divorce and depression to the point of suicide is epidemic coming out of this movement. High rates of sickness and death, far beyond what would be considered normal. The case I knew of that I heard years ago involved a woman (a co-workers mother) that was near to loosing her mind over some things. I also heard a traveling street preacher, who said he has been all of the nation and around the world and not felt the opression he feels in Churches and Christians around KC. He was very disturbed at the way Christians walk around and won't even speak to each other, etc. This is not everywhere, but it was alarming to him. This city really needs prayer.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/11/8 8:50||Profile|