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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Andrew Strom Renounces the Prophetic Movement & the Recent Whitedove Conference in Kansas City ...

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lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Basic questions answered 02



My question:
"Since when did a difference occur between the Old Testament and the New as to the prophetic dimension and the prophetic office?"

Todd’s answer:
Perhaps when most other things about how God related to humanity drastically changed- the revelation of Christ and Pentecost (the Spirit poured out upon a group, not just an individual).

Comment:
Nothing changed as to how God relates to humanity by the coming of Christ, the Cross and the resurrection.
Rather, a definite reference point was established, the Cross, in relation to which everything is thoroughly defined as to belonging or alienation, as to validity or as rubbish.
The prophet, as an individual or in a fellowship, still deals with sin and redemption. They still consider and ponder the ways of the Lord concerning the individual and/or collective testimony, the revelation of Christ in man summed up in holy living and Christ-likeness.
Their instruments are sharper after revelation of the Cross than before.
The prophets of the New Testament are more radical than the former ones because of the Cross.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 4:07Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Dear King,

Saw your post after this latest drivel of mine.
Would you consider being an Aaron to me? I don't know how to talk... :-(


I'll be your Aaron :-)


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2004/11/6 6:45Profile
Spitfire
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Joined: 2004/8/3
Posts: 633


 Re: Ministry of confrontation

Quote:
It involves a price to be paid by mature Christians; the novice should not get involved because of the possibilities of counter-operations targeting the weak and vulnerable. The enemy has no scruples.


Lars, I love you, Brother, but sometimes you talk way over my head. Perhaps I am just a silly woman. What are you saying here, exactly? I was wondering if your meaning was directed towards me?
Quote:
A prophet, viewed by “Them”, cannot be corrected – a stance which makes it very difficult to reach happy endings.


I didn't understand what you were saying here, either. Could you please say it in layman's terms? I can't tell if you agree or disagree with what I was saying about "them". Please forgive me. I'm not trying to be confrontational. It's just hard to know what's really going on here sometimes because we aren't looking at one another. We are getting a one dimensional view of one another.

 2004/11/6 7:05Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



I agree on the fact that this is a part of the Church, to be regarded as straying sheep and a sinful leadership.
I agree on the necessity as to sharing responsibility, carrying a burden for change.
We need to engage in battle for this section of Christianity – even as if they were very close to us, defining the enemy and by the grace of God taking out the enemy.
But the enemy will not give in easily – and he has a well established stronghold among many of these men.
When we engage in prayer for them, as for anything of value to the Lord, the enemy normally reacts by hitting back – and he chooses the weak as a target.
A general warning is therefore appropriate sounded for us all not to take the issue of battle lightly, especially if we are not in proper spiritual condition.
These so called prophets have positioned themselves above reproach. Therefore, engaging them in dialogue is a very tiresome work and confronting them will most of the time lead to foul play and bad, even very bad reactions from them.
We need much prayer for those who have a position in which they can come close to this leadership. Some of us have been stationed for battle for a long time.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 7:43Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
I'll be your Aaron



Touche` brother!
Speak on!
:-P


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/11/6 7:56Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
I'll be your Aaron

Touche` brother!
Speak on!


Hi Mike
You do understand the implications of this, I hope.

[b]And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. [/b](Exo 7:1 KJV)

If someone is your Aaron, that makes you 'god'. You don't think this moderator thing and being Greg's backup is going a little to your head do you? ;-)

I would have offered to be your Aa-ron, but as I have no 'hair' I'll just have to be 'ron'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/6 9:14Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Basic questions answered 03



My question:
"Since when did the standards of a man of God change from Christ-likeness to fortune-telling and dancing around a golden calf?"

Todd’s answer
I don't think they did.

Why, then, are these practices and many more hailed as proper behaviour in conferences and churches?
Why has the prophetic interpretation of God’s standards gone off tangent?

Spiritual maturity signifies gullibility. The Berean mindset was hailed for its integrity and willingness to search the scriptures. Today, it stands for an openness for whatever is handed our by spiritual bartenders. Drunkenness is lifted up as the trendy expression of spirituality.

A full measure of Christ manifesting in mild and caring expressions towards the oppressed and needy is reversed into a robbing the widow and crushing the one already beaten and downtrodden.
And we could go on. . .

Paul said regarding the false apostles, you bear with anyone if he enslaves you, if he devours you, if he takes advantage of you, if exalts himself, if he hits you in the face.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/6 9:40Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
You do understand the implications of this, I hope.


Yikes! Apparently not!
Quote:
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. (Exo 7:1 KJV)



The dangers of trying to be cute...:-o

Aaron, I think I have gotten us into a bit of a mess here...I know there is a back door around here somewhere...
Quote:
I would have offered to be your Aa-ron, but as I have no 'hair' I'll just have to be 'ron'.


Well I have some hair to spare even after shoring the locks by about 5 inches as it appears this goofball has acquired a 'real' job. Now that I resemble the guy on the Quakers Oats container might have to go a bit further, could send the results, should be enough to make a nice toupee' :-)

You know on the 'serious' side that scripture does bring to mind another and a new post...


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Mike Balog

 2004/11/6 10:17Profile
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
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 Re:

I have held off from commenting on this tread, apart from to make "ice cutting" comments and obvious statements. My reason for this, is that I have been a long time supporter of these "prophets" (albeit from in the closet, when it comes to this site;-)), so I didn't want to comment until I had adequately proccessed the events.

One thing that I do know, is that prophets speak of things that few understand, and as a result, attract criticsm, which is often the result of misunderstanding. By prophet, I don't mean someone who has an office, or annointing, but more in the sense of being a "prophetic person".

To define the term as I am using it, I mean someone who has a grasp on things that "regular christians" can't comprehend. For example, few could comprehend the meaning of what repentance is, untill J Edwin Orr preached about the "First Word of the Gospel". The church didn't understand "Salvation by Faith" until Luther posted his theses.

Granted, God always has a remnant to defend the faith, yet He seems to allow a man to stand up and attach his face to a truth, as a vehicle to alert those outside of the remnant of it's existance. In this sense of the word, we would include Finney, Tozer, Ravenhill, Katz, Comfort, Wilkerson, to name but a few.

Simply because a man claims himself to be a prophet, neither excludes nor qualifies him to be one. It simply displays possibly a degree of imaturity in the individual, that desires recognition. Perhaps he has launched before his time. Perhaps he had no place claiming to be what he has. Perhaps God has actually commanded him to declare himself to be a prophet to offend minds like ours.

One thing that I do know is that God has humbled me thoughout my walk, by bringing alongside of me influences who failed miserably. The man who successfully prayed for me to be delivered from drug addiction, had a marriage breakdown within a year later. Another significant influence turned out to be a closet homosexual. And that's just scratching the surface.

I began to think that my involvement in someone's life was a sign of their impending doom. One of these "prophets" that has had significant influence in my life is Rick Joyner. It was Joyner who first drew my attention to the trees in th garden of Eden, The Final Quest series has been as an incredible indicator as to the condition of the modern church, as Wilkerson 1973 Vision.

I have read many a criticism online regarding the "Civil War", the "devine inspiration claims" of his writings, and his membership of the Knights of Malta. However, many of these opinions are based upon false assumptions as to the meaning of his writings.

Knights of Malta is a branch of York Rite Freemasonry. Joyner claims to have joined a group based in Malta, that traces it's origins right back to the crusades. Where the Masonic group simply borrows the name.

Devine inspiration are adamently denied by Joyner, who acknowledges that his writtings are simply show us to see a different slant on misunderstood scripture. How is this different from Tozer's "Persuit of God" challenging the "normal" chritianity of it's day?

The Chritian Civil War criticsm's actually fulfill the "prophecy" given. Really, the Chritian Civil War is just a repackaging of the same old "Calvanism v Arminianism" that has been resurfacing throughout christendom. Call it Law v Grace, Works v Faith, etc...it's simply an expression of us trying to separate one gospel into two opposing truths.

Chapter 1 of Final Quest begins with a demon horde riding on the backs of christians. The demons vomit "condemnation", which the christians mistake for "conviction", and they defacate "pride" which they mistake for annointing.

The army is marching toward the christians, who are playing games and having dinners. The christians are oblivious to the fact that the enemy is coming, saying "We're protected by the Lord, and have nothing to worry about."

If the first army isn't the "Arminian/Works/Law" camp (who incidently claim that Joyner is saying that the civil war is between the "prophetic movement" and those who "preach repentance") and if the second camp aren't the "Calvinist/Faith/Garce" (who claim that the civil war is between the "prophetic movement" and those who preach "salvation by grace"), then I'm a baked chicken. It's easy to see these two camps firmly entrenched, and at times I am amazed at comments made by people of both extremes. The reality is we cannot afford the luxury of choosing sides.

Calvin never denied human responsability in sin, and Arminus never claimed that the christian was capable of perfect in himself. Luther repented of denying the inspiration of the James' epistle, when he realised the "We are saved by faith and not of work, but your faith cannot save you unless it works."

The Final Quest continues by showing the christians who realised the futility of the war being waged, ascending a mountain with different levels being different truths, until the reached the "Gal 2:20" level. From this level, they could effectively combat the deception that the "warring cristians" were under.

Of course, the two camps criticise by saying, "How dare you Joyner. Claiming that we are deceived." Yet one camp claims that the other is dceived....and there both right. Where these warring factions claim to be at war with the "prophetic movement", Joyner claims that those who are on the mountain, have stepped out of the fight to fight the lies, rather than the people.

In the same series, Joyner rebukes the laughing movement (by calling for sobriety, saying that it's time to be serious), and mentions the fact that the end time Apostles and Prophets will experience anonymity (this is particularly address in "The Call"). The reailty is that there is no such thing as the "prophetic movement", in the sence that you cannot bundle all these people into one category.

To illustrate what I'm saying, there is an individual that I am pesonally aware of, who is running around spouting his mouth about Sermon Index. The individual aligns himself with certian "Word of Faith" preachers (however there are many he rejects). This individual leans heavily on the "Faith/Grace" camp, rejecting "Law/Works" tecahing. This man wants to pull down the "Sermon Index" movement, for preaching a false Jesus.

I am not being funny, this is really happening. If this man has his way, SI would be shut down. Yet anyone hear would reject the notion that SI is a movement, and rightly so. In fact, many who frequent SI have done away with the notion of movements altogether, acknowledging demoninational differentiations as a "necessary evil". Church fellowships have become "mission fields", as we search those who will awken to the true gospel.

Agian, Luther stayed in the Catholic church. His goal was to reform the Catholics, not to establish the Lutheran Church. He could have gone to join all the other "London City Heretics" being burnt at the stake, but he represented them in Germany....I mean, how ridiculous a statement.

Was the Whitedove conference off, in regard to knowing the will of God? Highly likely. Yet the reasons given for this happening (namely, the fall of Paul Cain), is highly humanistic, and not devine (outside of the possiblitiy that Cain's fall had prophetic significance...which would make him a prophet). We can't have it both ways friends.

Away, let the stoning begin.


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/11/6 11:28Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thought about coming back here under a pseudonym but..

A lot to muse on here Aaron. But care to comment on the 'angels' and other...'disturbing' things that seemed to have ruffled a few of our feathers?

Not to provoke in the least, but these things seemed to be what are bothersome and really the sense of the whole article from what I could gather was of that...'atmosphere' if I could put it that way.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/11/6 12:07Profile





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