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FireinmyBones1
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Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Yes, The Bait of Satan is excellent as well. I would suggest anything by Brother Bevere. Drawing Near, which is relatively new, is also excellent.
Burning,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2004/11/4 15:12Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: bevere

Bevere also has a book that is called "Under Cover". I do not agree with this book at all. It really pushed the whole "covering" thing they have in many charasmatic churches. "Who is your covering?" I can't tell you how many times I heard that. I saw many people abuse this and use it for control.

Don't mean to burst the bubble- just giving my opinion. :-o Anybody else read it?

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/11/4 15:35Profile
dougkristen
Member



Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Re:

Chanin,

No offense here. (LOL), I was a part of a church in the early 90's that was part of the Sheparding Movement, buy Bob Mumford, who has repented of this. It was a "covering" type theology where you were 'fathered' or shepard by another man/woman who was your covering. Very unscriptural and cultish. I am VERY , familiar with this and when through about 8 difficult years as a result of this. We are supposed to be underauthority to our church leaders, but this can open up a new topic thread of church authority, etc.

Grace,
Doug


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a Jesus freak

 2004/11/4 15:43Profile
Scandalon
Member



Joined: 2004/11/4
Posts: 1


 Re:

Quote:

todd wrote:
What bothered me so much about this article is that it is all opinion based (as far as I can tell). And of course Strom has just as much a right to his opinion as anyone, though I don't know how justified he is in sharing it publically. But he is accountable to the Lord for that.
Obviously Andrew had certain expectations going into the conference. He felt he had clearly heard from God. It seems he was hoping for the whole "old-fashioned" ("classic") repentence paradigm, and when that didn't happen then he was bothered. And he was bothered by the dancing and it's supposedly pagan feel. Though, once again, he only offers his opinions. And what else can he do, I don't think there exists any Scriptural support for his argument against the movement. They didn't repent in the right way in his opinion. They didn't dance "right". They didn't do the money thing "right".

His arguments seem purely subjective.

Where he clearly seems to be unjustified is where he makes absolute claims like, "instead of REPENTANCE, people are getting all kinds of counterfeit spiritual experiences." And how exactly does he know that for sure?

No, I'm concluding that Strom is for sure unjustified in this situation overall. But if I'm just going by that message he sent out, it sure seems likely.

But like Greg pointed out:
"All I can think of in these times is 'keep looking to Jesus' and all the rest of this looks like trivia."

Same theory on the other side of the issue.



Leonard Ravenhill quoted someone when he gave a definition for a prophet . " A prophet is God's emergency man in an hour of crisis, he is torn between a fierce loyalty between God and His people" I am typing this from memory so I think
its word for word but I could be wrong. Anyway, the point is that if you look at the "prophetic"
movement today it doesn't seem to embody this statement. Apart from Andrew I don't hear the "prophets" preaching repentance.
I think entirely too much empahsis is placed on going to get a "word" and the "school of the spirit". I have been disappointed with the lack of accountability, it seems if that no one is ever wrong, statements like "you know it could be something meant for the future" or so I have been told. There is no standard of when someone is right or they missed it. Even the leaders seem to be reluctant to say when they have missed God.
I am thankful that Andrew has taken a stand.

As Jesus told the Church in Laodicea
'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.

This applies as much today to the Western Churches as it did when it was first written.


 2004/11/4 16:13Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: Sin in the Camp

Quote:
" A prophet is God's emergency man in an hour of crisis, he is torn between a fierce loyalty between God and His people"



If there is a word that needs to thunder throughout all of Christendom- it is a word of repentance to confront the secret sins in the lives of 'Christians', especially ministers. There is no more room for compromise. No more time to take a break from God and head off to an altar of Baal or Asteroth some place. When judgment begins in the house of God it is going to begin with the leadership first. Where are the Nathan's of our day that will point the finger into the heart and proclaim, "THOU ART THE MAN!" When I hear about people living in sin and prophesying it makes my blood boil. That ought NEVER so to be! There is no rebuke strong enough to meet such pretense head on. When these people are exposed it devestates people's faith. People's spiritual lives are wrecked. As far as I'm concerned there is no mountain high enough or trumpet loud enough to fully sound the alarm to this generation that so flippantly handles the things of God.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/4 16:34Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Crsschk,

You wrote:
"I don't see any way of defending any of this nor any reason why it should not be exposed, publicly"

You don't see any way of defending any of what? Doing things differently then some people are comfortable with or had hoped it would be? For me it's pretty simple to defend much of this. All I really want to know is, where is there a clear Scriptural violation? In matters like this, I'm not going to be swayed to the point of forming solid conclusions, leading to a judgmental attitude, based on someone's opinions.

Quote:
"Wish to God somebody would have had the gumption to stand up in the midst of it all and cry from the depths of their heart to stop this reproach to our God and dragging the name of our Lord through the mud."

Not tracking with you here. What about people like Hanegraff? it seems clear that he and those who shared his convictions sure tried hard to do something.

As far as Ravenhill, this probably isn't the place to get too deep into that concept of a prophet. I would be very interested in exploring that some more on a new thread if anyone wants to. I would like to hear that Ravenhill quote in context but I am wondering if he was speaking more along the lines of how we see an Old Testament type of prophet.

 2004/11/4 22:08Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:


Below, the Ravenhill item quoted and requested.

Since when did the role of a prophet change into what we now see in the so called prophetic movement? 1994?
Since when did a difference occur between the Old Testament and the New as to the prophetic dimesion and the prophetic office?
Since when did the standards of a man of God change from Christ-likeness to fortune-telling and dancing around a golden calf?

The prophetic plumb line: Should Jesus have done it this way.
The prophetic mandate: Bringing a straying leadership and a hurting people back to the Lamb and to the Lord.
Lars W.



TRUE PROPHETS
By LEONARD RAVENHILL

The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.
Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, “No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected.” The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his “brand name.”

The group, challenged by the prophet because they are smug and comfortably insulated from a perishing world in their warm but untested theology, is not likely to vote him “Man of the year” when he refers to them as habituates of the synagogue of Satan!
The prophet comes to set up that which is upset. His work is to call into line those who are out of line! He is unpopular because he opposes the popular in morality and spirituality. In a day of faceless politicians and voiceless preachers, there is not a more urgent national need than that we cry to God for a prophet! The function of the prophet, as Austin-Sparks once said, “has almost always been that of recovery.”

The prophet is God’s detective seeking for a lost treasure. The degree of his effectiveness is determined by his measure of unpopularity. Compromise is not known to him. He has no price tags.
He is totally “otherworldly.”
He is unquestionably controversial and unpardonably hostile.
He marches to another drummer!
He breathes the rarefied air of inspiration.
He is a “seer” who comes to lead the blind.
He lives in the heights of God and comes into the valley with a “thus saith the Lord.”
He shares some of the foreknowledge of God and so is aware of impending judgment.

He lives in “splendid isolation.”
He is forthright and outright, but he claims no birthright.
His message is “repent, be reconciled to God or else...!”
His prophecies are parried.
His truth brings torment, but his voice is never void.
He is the villain of today and the hero of tomorrow.
He is excommunicated while alive and exalted when dead!

He is dishonored with epithets when breathing and honored with epitaphs when dead.
He is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but few “make the grade” in his class.
He is friendless while living and famous when dead.
He is against the establishment in ministry; then he is established as a saint by posterity.
He eats daily the bread of affliction while he ministers, but he feeds the Bread of Life to those who listen.
He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years.
He is a scourge to the nation before he is scourged by the nation.
He announces, pronounces, and denounces!

He has a heart like a volcano and his words are as fire.
He talks to men about God.
He carries the lamp of truth amongst heretics while he is lampooned by men.
He faces God before he faces men, but he is self-effacing.
He hides with God in the secret place, but he has nothing to hide in the marketplace.
He is naturally sensitive but supernaturally spiritual.
He has passion, purpose and pugnacity.
He is ordained of God but disdained by men.


Our national need at this hour is not that the dollar recover its strength, or that we save face over the Watergate affair, or that we find the answer to the ecology problem. We need a God-sent prophet!
I am bombarded with talk or letters about the coming shortages in our national life: bread, fuel, energy. I read between the lines from people not practiced in scaring folk. They feel that the “seven years of plenty” are over for us. The “seven years of famine” are ahead. But the greatest famine of all in this nation at this given moment is a FAMINE OF THE HEARING OF THE WORDS OF GOD (Amos 8:11).

Millions have been spent on evangelism in the last twenty-five years. Hundreds of gospel messages streak through the air over the nation every day. Crusades have been held; healing meetings have made a vital contribution. “Come-outers” have “come out” and settled, too, without a nation-shaking revival. Organizers we have. Skilled preachers abound. Multi-million dollar Christian organizations straddle the nation. BUT where, oh where, is the prophet? Where are the incandescent men fresh from the holy place? Where is the Moses to plead in fasting before the holiness of the Lord for our moldy morality, our political perfidy, and sour and sick spirituality?

GOD’S MEN ARE IN HIDING UNTIL THE DAY OF THEIR SHOWING FORTH. They will come. The prophet is violated during his ministry, but he is vindicated by history.
There is a terrible vacuum in evangelical Christianity today. The missing person in our ranks is the prophet. The man with a terrible earnestness. The man totally otherworldly. The man rejected by other men, even other good men, because they consider him too austere, too severely committed, too negative and unsociable.
Let him be as plain as John the Baptist.
Let him for a season be a voice crying in the wilderness of modern theology and stagnant “churchianity.”
Let him be as selfless as Paul the apostle.
Let him, too, say and live, “This ONE thing I do.”
Let him reject ecclesiastical favors.
Let him be self-abasing, nonself-seeking, nonself-projecting, nonself- righteous, nonself-glorying, nonself-promoting.
Let him say nothing that will draw men to himself but only that which will move men to God.

Let him come daily from the throne room of a holy God, the place where he has received the order of the day.
Let him, under God, unstop the ears of the millions who are deaf through the clatter of shekels milked from this hour of material mesmerism.
Let him cry with a voice this century has not heard because he has seen a vision no man in this century has seen. God send us this Moses to lead us from the wilderness of crass materialism, where the rattlesnakes of lust bite us and where enlightened men, totally blind spiritually, lead us to an ever-nearing Armageddon.
God have mercy! Send us PROPHETS!


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/5 0:21Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
For me it's pretty simple to defend much of this. All I really want to know is, where is there a clear Scriptural violation?



[i]"By the last session the audience was so hyped that they threw away all inhibition and leapt into the 'pagan' dancing themselves with wild abandon. And one of the main prophets even got up and announced that there were angels in the room going around "blowing on peoples' fingers" if only they would lift them up in the air. That particular part sounds silly, but actually the whole thing by this stage had become awful beyond words. Virtually every day I came home utterly grieved and depressed."[/i]
Quote:
For me it's pretty simple to defend much of this. All I really want to know is, where is there a clear Scriptural violation?



Where is the scriptual precendence? And why would you want to defend any of this?

Some violations?
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with [b]reverence and godly fear[/b]:
Heb 12:29 [b]For our God is a consuming fire[/b].

Can see where this would end up going and feel that sadness in even wanting to get caught up in taking scriptures apart to make a point. If anything it violates the Spirit of scripture, of just how Holy and other God is and just how little is thought of Him and His Son and His Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick.


My quote:
Quote:
"Wish to God somebody would have had the gumption to stand up in the midst of it all and cry from the depths of their heart to stop this reproach to our God and dragging the name of our Lord through the mud."



And your reply:
Quote:
Not tracking with you here. What about people like Hanegraff? it seems clear that he and those who shared his convictions sure tried hard to do something



I meant right then and there, while it was happening.



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Mike Balog

 2004/11/5 0:54Profile
revival9
Member



Joined: 2004/6/6
Posts: 140
Arizona, USA

 Re: Andrew Strom Renounces the Prophetic Movement & the Recent Whitedove Conference i

My thanks, too, Rahman, for posting this. To all of you on this thread who are voicing the clear, humble truth against this pathetic movement, I am smiling ear to ear. You've encouraged me.

Mrs. Fred :-)


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Mrs. Fred

 2004/11/5 1:27Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Modern so called prophets





Modern so called prophets soothe, make nice and present instructions on how to receive blessings and how to enter a state of affluence. Their god – intentionally spelled with a small “g” - tells how to get ready for the next step in the undefined development of the kingdom which never materialises.
Their favourite composition hits the grand accord “Everything is all right. I want you to feel, feel good, feel very good.” Their counterpart in the profane sector of the same genre comes out “I’m OK, you are OK.”
The modern namedropper, dropping his business card with its nice logotypes alluding to spiritual realities and with bombastic exposure of stolen titles, never makes any demands except on the purses of the audience. He rather instructs them to open up, to shut down the apparatus installed by the Lord which was made for thinking, discernment and sound judgment, to lower their defence in every possible way for the sake of an invasion from the spiritual realm. A new thing coming, a new thing coming.

The New Testament prophet dresses his office with one aspiration – spiritual maturity, ability to handle life’s many obstacles with heavenly sobriety.
The New Testament prophet defends the faith which was given once and for all, a heavenly framework within which man can commune with the Lord who sits on the throne, for ever praying for the full salvation and sanctification of the saints. This prophet gives his life in prayer, as the Lord did, for the shattered and battered sheep.
The New Testament prophet works intensely to secure a revelation of what is heavenly to be displayed in his own life for the encouragement among saints unto holy endeavours.

This is what we long for and pray for and reach out for. Nothing else satisfies.
Lars W.


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Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/5 5:08Profile





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