SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : Andrew Strom Renounces the Prophetic Movement & the Recent Whitedove Conference in Kansas City ...

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 Next Page )
PosterThread
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: Touch Not My Anointed



A thorough, gentle operation has been going on for years for the purpose of reaching out to these men and many others, to cause repentance and restoration.
The word delivered to us has held the same content over and over again – Do not touch the prophets. They are beyond correction. They are God’s chosen ones.
They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction.
Lars W.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/8 11:28Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction.



This is true, even when one from 'within' tries to bring correction. That is the scarriest thing. The problem also exists in the fact that people are made to believe they should follow leaders and submit without any real checks and balances. This is extremely dangerous. These men are weilding oratory skills and persuasion we can't imagine.

Since Andrew made this announcement it has created a division of sorts, with those who disagree saying "He is speaking from his woundedness" and therefor discounting it all together. Others are saying, there is a serious problem that must be dealt with. Yet others are blaming the enemy for causing division in the prophetic movement. But Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword. The sword divides. It divides truth from error. Today is another day as in the days of early Israel- choose ye this day whom you will serve. Who is on the Lord's side? These 'prophets' will not save you in that great day. They will not answer for you either. We shall all give an account of the deeds done in the body. For now, we must earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered to the Saints.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/8 11:39Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Mike,

You wrote:
"To point out dangerous assumptions is not authoritative nor judge mental."

It would be one thing if "point[ing] out dangerous assumptions" was all that was being done here. I don't know if you even realize how often you yourself come across this way. I just quickly browsed through some of your previous posts on this thread. Here's just two quick examples:

"This is NOT Christianity"

"If anything it violates the Spirit of scripture, of just how Holy and other God is and just how little is thought of Him and His Son and His Holy Angels who are not flying around blowing on peoples finger tips, that's not silly, that's sick."

Do you see it? You are stating things with authority as if they are fact. I do appreciate subsequent comments like "I most certainly could be wrong." But I hope you can see how in the moment it doesn't seem like you are taking that stance (that you could be wrong) but that you [b]know[/b] you are right. Like you have absolute confidence.

Strom seems to do the same type of thing with such statements as, "The whole movement is sick." And I have noticed others who post here do this as well. I may have done it myself. I think it's a real problem.

You're not merely pointing out dangerous assumptions and asking questions. That would be very different.

Quote:
"Do a serious study of angels and see if you can extract any character traits that would give any precedence for this 'possibility'."

Easy. They are divine beings who were created by a God who is love. A large part of their destiny is to help us. But much of the Church has ignored them. This "blowing on the fingertips" thing can be seen as a token of their presence. We could use the help!

I get the principle about being aware. Or "beware." And so I am aware of these things. What I refuse to be is paranoid.

Quote:
"I certainly don't get the idea that if they couldn't find something in scripture they would accept it, but just the opposite."

First of all I never said that "if they couldn't find something in the Scripture they would accept it." I said they were very "open-minded" in terms of Pauls "new interpretation" of the Scriptures. Quoting that commentary:

"Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves."

And that's exactly what I am saying. They examined it for themselves. They were objective. Examining the Scriptures for myself, I find no grounds to reject the controversial things that this thread was started over.

Is there any reason you chose to define those terms "common" and "sense" other then to possibly clarify meaning?

Quote:
"Believing whatever you want, which of course is everyones 'right', but Todd you didn't reserve that 'right' in private in this case."

You're right. In this case I feel it's important to publically question what was publically shared. More of what I was trying to get at there was keeping the subjective subjective and not trying to make it seem objective. Not saying with authority "this is how it is" based on feelings and subjective opinions.

Quote:
"The crux of this seems to be that one of us is screaming 'FIRE!' and the other is saying "What fire?"

Yes, I like that, I think it's pretty accurate. I think a more accurate (though not as catchy) version would be that many are screaming "Ungodly FIRE" and one is saying "Are you sure it's ungodly? Why do you say that?"

Quote:
"I am sure if we were able to sit down face to face and open up the scriptures together, work through these things we both could learn much from each other."

Agreed.

Quote:
"What is the proper way of reading scripture? Is it an 'open door' as Todd stated if it doesn't necessarily 'violate scripture'? Or is it logical to draw from principles and precedence that has already been established and go no further? Not trying to make this another argument, nor am I under the illusion that it is all that cut and dry, but what is more prudent?"

I think you are really getting at the heart of the matter with these good questions. It may be logical to do those things, but is it biblical? It may seem prudent, but what is of greater value- prudence or love?

What's more dangerous to you? Lacking love and humility, or not being logical, prudent, and cautious enough?

 2004/11/8 12:22Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re: Touch Not My Anointed

Quote:
"For years I have been taught that many people in the body of Christ are not to be touched as they are God's anointed."

"They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction."

"This is true, even when one from 'within' tries to bring correction. That is the scarriest thing."

Obviously some of the most most well-known leaders in this "movement" don't hold to that teaching. I am speaking of Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, and Jack Deere publically sharing Paul Cain's sin. And this recent case also seems to debunk the second and third quotations above. It seems that the large majority of people who you might consider "in the prophectic movement" agree with what they did and the way they did it.

Quote:
" They dictate their own rules, even concerning endorsement and correction."

In light of the recent Paul Cain scenario, it seems that the rules they dictated were strictly according to the Bible. It started going privately to Paul, then in a small group, and only as a last resort was it made public knowledge. To me this speaks to the integrity of these men.

 2004/11/8 12:39Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



Joyner, especially, does not want to respond to mild, but serious correction - for example in relation to his occult involvement.
Lars W.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/8 13:00Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re: Touch Not My Anointed

Quote:
by RobertW on 2004/11/8 11:15:46 For years I have been taught that many people in the body of Christ are not to be touched as they are God's anointed. But wait a minute, is not Jesus Christ the anointed one? Is He not the one being 'touched' by the falsehood and madness that goes on in His name? Is it not those who cause His name to be blasphemed among the Gentiles who need to be reproved, rebuked and exhorted with all long suffering and doctrine? Were we not warned about those that would come in not sparing the flock? We need to stop defending falsehood and start standing with the Truth. I have had my share of defending many leaders that are now big time on TV and now I wonder what was I thinking? What was blinding me and causing me to overlook so much that I clearly saw happening?



You're quite right Robert. It has been said to me that LOCAL PASTORS should be the ones to counsel people, discuss the meaning of scripture, etc----other Christians should not give biblical advice/counsel/discuss sin issues because it is above their "paygrade"----as if God's Word and the Holy Spirit is not enough to ascertain truth.......

The mindset that the SHEPHERD of the flock is the source of all truth---even if in opposition to the Word of God, is quite a scary thing which is going on in ALL of Christiandom. It not only exists in the prophetic/charismatic camp, but can be found in many different churches. I think the "touch not my annointed" is a very manipulative thing being used to keep dissenting views quiet due to the fear of possibly going against the Lord Himself. "judge not lest you be judged" is another scripture widely used to keep people "quiet" ........it's a sad thing that the Lord's Word is used in such a manipulative manner(instilling unbiblical fear to avoid people "testing" all things when addressing error or things which "could be" error). Personally, I am extremely thankful for those who have urged me to "test" all things. It has helped immensely and I have continually found myself changing beliefs as I study those things I thought were true---the things I obtained from men, not from God. Blessings.........


_________________
Cindy

 2004/11/8 13:41Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
In light of the recent Paul Cain scenario, it seems that the rules they dictated were strictly according to the Bible. It started going privately to Paul, then in a small group, and only as a last resort was it made public knowledge. To me this speaks to the integrity of these men.



Hi Bro. Todd,

I do agree that based upon the wording that was put forth by these men in handling Paul cain that the procedure was quite biblical. I would only add to that, that when those who profess to possess such light fall into such sin it ought to make everyone wake up and take notice. Here is a man that many consider to be the 'father' of the modern day prophetic movement. Judgment begins with the House of God and in the House of God it begins with those who hold the greatest amount of truth (light) in unrighteousness. Those who are sinning with the most light are the first to be judged in my estimation, because they are the most worthy. It funnels down from there.

If the fall of Paul Cain will not bring the prophetic movement to repentance- what will? When a person in a leadership position, whether we consider them legit or not, falls into sin- it should cause everyone around them to take notice. And if I might so say, don't weep for Paul- weep for yourselves and for your children. Weep for the day of Judgment that is coming to try all our works. God is pulling back the covers and there had best not be anything there. He is giving us time to get our act together before He acts I believe. Lest us agree with our adversary while we are in the way with Him. Time is running out. Excuses will not hold water. Genuine repentance is the only hope.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/8 14:06Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:




Brother Robert, you wrote;

Quote;
"The whole term "Prophet" has been blasphemed".


Amen, by the devil, and for the express reason that when God finally calls forth His true prophet(s) there's been so much crapola done in the name of the prophet that it makes it easier for all to marginalize the spokesman of God ...


Quote;
"Ravenhill said the prophet is a tragic figure".


Amen again, a person of many sorrows, saved from despair only by an almost unbelievable closeness and communion with our Lord via the unction, Power and Might of the Holy Ghost ... This means that the prophet is subject in their humanity to the highest of highs when the Spirit of God is in specific working upon them, and then to the lowest lows after the deliverance of the drama and or message God wroughts thru them, as the hateful voices of the multitudes, and their own personal fears creep in ... Personally, without their tenacious faith of mantled purpose, their weapon of oft times near blood sweating prayer, and their desperate reliance on the steadying comfort of the Holy Ghost, i think most prophets might be open to a diagnosis of being manic-depressive, in need of tranquilizers ... It has to be God Himself who chooses His true spokesman, because no man would want the mantle of prophet in it's truest vestage ...


QUOTE;
"Jeremiah was told to tear down and then plant and build up. These KC prophets wanted to 'plant' and 'build up' but they did not want to tear down. They wanted to perform their own popular agenda" ...


Not only these KC prophets, but pastors/preachers as well ... So many pastors/churches share a spiritually sick sycophantic relationship ... They keep preaching sugar for mammon,
and the congregations keep giving mammon for sugar ... But as we all know a diet of all sugar will make the congregation sick, and the priests seeking after mammon even sicker, as they are God's anointed, and thereby far more accountable to judgment ... Is it any wonder the clash between true prophet(s) and false prophet(s) and priest(s)?


Quote;
"As wicked as this generation is I will believe no so called prophet that is not proclaiming repentance crying loud and sparing not! Forget the flakey stuff. Forget the falsehood. We need to hear a mandate- REPENT"!


Amen a third time, for to me what other message does the true prophet of God have but REPENT! ... i acknowledge to such a mantle and i can tell you honestly i have no other message for saved (especially at this point for the saved), and unsaved alike but REPENT! ... i've made many folk in my proximity sick of the word REPENT! ... i've been asked don't i have anything else to proclaim, but REPENT! ... And i tell them ALL No, for it's the only message the Spirit unctions me to proclaim ... REPENT! ... and then the reasons why He has me proclaiming such a simple, but awe consequenced message to anyone who doesn't heed ...

In all spiritual reasoning, backed up by scripture, why are prophets sent in the first place? ... Because the priests, and people of God get so caught up in the ritual, pomp and circumstance of the building, that they completely forget about the Builder ... The true prophet of God is all about the Builder, and what the Builder demands, and what dire consequences will follow if the Builder does not get what He wants ... REPENTANCE! ... and a return of His own Bride back to her first love, Him, and all that pleases solely Him! ... Pure worship of Him in Spirit and in Truth, from bodies presented to Him as living sacrifices, which make up a Holy Nation, and royal priesthood of peculiar folk tried by fire to purest gold!

"Lord God, in the name of Jesus, bring forth your foolish to counfound the wise ... Send your Amos class forth, simple laity on fire with your message of REPENT! ... Send forth your Joel's to the priest(s), pointing out the error of their ways, and the benefit of your latter rain if they would simply only get between that porch, and that altar and cry out, travailing in REPENTANCE, that they might call together solemn assemblies to the same, that you may both here and see our sorrow for our groves and high places, and that we will tear them down ourselves, before You tear them down for us! ... Lord God by your Spirit please open up the ears of your people that we all may hear what You are shouting to our stopped up ears ... " REPENT! ... REPENT! ... REPENT! ... Amen ...

PS - Brother Robert if i lived in your area i think i'd probably be a member of your congregation ... Keep on proclaiming Repentance, as the King of the universe warns, waits and weeps over His own!

 2004/11/8 16:26Profile
todd
Member



Joined: 2003/5/12
Posts: 573
California

 Re:

Quote:

"Joyner, especially, does not want to respond to mild, but serious correction - for example in relation to his occult involvement."

What occult involvement? And how do you know he hasn't responded to correction?

 2004/11/8 16:27Profile
lwpray
Member



Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re:



I was one of the members of the team confronting him.
L. W.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/11/8 16:32Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy