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 Re:

Romans 5:12 says nothing about sinning "in" anyone. That is not even possible. The idea comes from the mistranslated Vulgate which Augustine used to justify the inherited sin nature idea.

Romans 5:12 say that all men were condemned for their own sins just like Adam was condemned for his own sin. "because all sinned"

Charles Finney rejected the false doctrine of Imputed Guilt as well as Original Sin.

"President Edwards relates of a young woman in his congregation, that she was deeply convicted of being guilty for Adam's first sin, and deeply repented of it. Now suppose that this and like cases should be regarded as conclusive proof that men are guilty of that sin, and deserve the wrath and curse of God for ever for that sin; and that all men will suffer the pains of hell for ever, except they become convinced of their personal guilt for that sin, and repent of it as in dust and ashes! President Edwards's teaching on the subject of the relation of all men to Adam's first sin, it is well known, was calculated in a high degree to pervert the judgment upon that subject; and this sufficiently accounts for the fact above alluded to. But apart from education, no human being ever held himself responsible for, or guilty of, the first or any other sin of Adam, or of any other being, who existed and died before he himself existed. The reason is that all moral agents naturally know, that inability or a proper impossibility is a bar to moral obligation and responsibility; and they never conceive to the contrary, unless biassed by a mystifying education that casts a fog over their primitive and constitutional convictions." ~ (Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, Lecture 52, The Notion of Inability)

 2010/11/8 22:40









 Re:

Quote:
For Finney, the depraved nature caused temptation, not sin. For calvinists, the depraved nature causes sin, not just temptation.

That sounds accurate.

 2010/11/8 22:43
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Amen Renoncer.

"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?"(Jeremiah 17:9)


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Oracio

 2010/11/8 22:43Profile









 Re:

@JB1968

Quote:
I believe it was David who said, In sin did my mother concieve me.

This is hyperbole/poetic, not literal.

 2010/11/8 22:46
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

Quote:
Romans 5:12 says nothing about sinning "in" anyone. That is not even possible. The idea comes from the mistranslated Vulgate which Augustine used to justify the inherited sin nature idea.



"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned."

"Because all sinned" is in reference to the reason why death spread to all men. We all know that death is a curse from the fall of Adam. We all know that the curse of "death" is something we are BORN with. Paul is saying that death came to Adams children(all men), because all sinned. How else can that be interpreted other than saying that when Adam sinned all sinned in him. In other words, Adam represented the human race. God knew the whole human race before he created it, and He knew the choice we would make before we made it. He knew that we would make the same choice Adam made if we were in his shoes. So instead of bringing death to each person when they actually committed the first sin, he allowed Adam's sin to be our sin because we also "made" that choice(in eternity in God's sight). We have to remember that God dwells in eternity not time.
That is also why God can predestine some to eternal life, because He knows every choice we make before we make it.


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Oracio

 2010/11/8 23:02Profile
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

It seems to me that Romans 5:15-21 makes it abundantly clear that through Adam's sin we were all made guilty and became condemned before God:


15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord


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Oracio

 2010/11/8 23:09Profile









 Re:

@Oracio

Adam was created mortal. Adam died because he did not have access to the tree of life.

Mortality is not a curse. Jesus became a mortal man just like we are mortal. Jesus did not have access to the tree of life just we don't have access. Just as Jesus was not being punished for his ancestor's sin, neither are we. Just as it was not a punishment for Jesus to be mortal, neither is our mortality a punishment.

If physical mortality was the punishment for our sin then Christians would not die because Jesus saved us from the punishment for our sins.

Quote:
How else can that be interpreted other than saying that when Adam sinned all sinned in him.

Like this: Just as Adam sinned and was condemned as a result of his own sin, likewise all men were condemned as a result of their own sins.

Children do not inherit the guilt or sin of the parent: Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, 2 Chronicles 25:4, Ezekiel 18:2-4, Ezekiel 18:19-20

Quote:
God knew the whole human race before he created it, and He knew the choice we would make before we made it. He knew that we would make the same choice Adam made if we were in his shoes. So instead of bringing death to each person when they actually committed the first sin, he allowed Adam's sin to be our sin because we also "made" that choice that(in eternity in God's sight). We have to remember that God dwells in eternity not time.
That is also why God can predestine some to eternal life, because He knows every choice we make before we make it.

There's no such thing as "in" or "outside" of time. Time is the uncreated sequential nature of God himself. Since God is enduring, temporal, living, active - therefore in him we live and move.

The past and future do not exist like in movies. Only this reality exists, which we call the present.

The Bible shows God getting information in ordinary ways: asking questions (where are you, who told you you were naked, did you eat it, etc), traveling places to see what is happening (sodom and gomorah), and testing people to see if they are trustworthy:

Deu 8:2 ..the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, TO KNOW what was in thine heart, WHETHER thou wouldest keep his commandments, OR NO.

Deu 13:3 ..the LORD your God proveth you, TO KNOW whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

2Chr 32:31 ..God left him, to try him, THAT HE MIGHT KNOW all that was in his heart.

Ge 22:12 ..NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, SEEING thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God values genuine relationship with his creation more than a predictable universe. That is why he created us intelligent, rational, and free - so we could be "holy and blameless before him in love" (Eph 1:4). If God was interested in a completely predictable universe then he could have made one but there couldn't be any genuine love in it that way.

Predestination is corporate, not individual. The church (Jew/Gentile/International) was predestined corporately. Who becomes a member is a matter of personal choice.

The unphilosophical and unbiblical "outside of time" idea of a foreknown or settled future (fate) goes hand in hand with inherited sinfulness back through Calvin all the way to Augustine and right into gnosticism.

 2010/11/8 23:35









 Re:

Quote:
It seems to me that Romans 5:15-21 makes it abundantly clear that through Adam's sin we were all made guilty and became condemned before God

The causative effect of Adam's sin is defined as being figurative of following Adam's example (being condemned for their own sins). Passages which occur after the defining passage (v12) should be interpreted consistently with this.

I have various non-Augustinian commentaries on this passage if you are interested.

I'd say this is Paul's most misinterpreted passage.

 2010/11/8 23:47
Oracio
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Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 2094
Whittier CA USA

 Re:

naatmi, it seems you believe in open theism. we will have to agree to disagree on that one. there is no way I can believe that doctrine because there are numerous Scriptures that declare the omniscience of God. But that's a whole other topic. Maybe you can start one on that topic. Just a suggestion.


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Oracio

 2010/11/8 23:52Profile
Madefree
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Joined: 2010/11/7
Posts: 193
Alabama

 Re:

That magical verse has been brought up. Here's a good summary of it: (not written by me)

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. - Psa. 51:5

Just yank this verse out of context and it looks like the issue is settled doesn't it? However, that violates every rule of interpretation by anyone's standards, and so anyone who is going to be honest is going to have to look a little closer. There are several ways to look at this, unless you have your mind already made up and don't intend to change it.

First of all, this is David's prayer of deep and thorough repentance. He sees himself as very low in the light of God's holiness. He has sinned against God and his guilt is great. He is humbling himself before God, as we all have to do. He is saying that he is just unworthy of anything from God. His best has not been anything to compare with God's holiness, and the best he has ever done now looks very worthless in view of his sin. His sin is all that is before him now and it is the great obstacle between him and God.

This is figurative language and that cannot be denied. If we take this statement and make a literal application with it, then we must also take verse 7 and apply it literally.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. -Psa. 51:7

But we know that hyssop will not cleanse us from our sins - it is figurative language. The idea is that David wants to be clean from his sin. He is begging God for deliverance and forgiveness and holding forth nothing of his own merit, but putting himself as low as he possibly can. He is saying, "I've never done anything worthy of your mercy, but I'm asking anyway."

Again in verse 8 we see figurative language used:

Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice. - Psa. 51:8

God did not literally break his bones, and bones do not rejoice. It is figurative language and in the same context as verse 5. Again it is speaking of David's low estate because of his sin and his desire to have his innermost heart pure and right with God.

Another way of looking at this to realize that he said "I was shapen IN iniquity, and IN sin did my mother conceive me…" Sin entered the world through Adam. David was born IN this world. His mother conceived him IN a sinful world and he was shapen as he grew IN the midst of a world full of iniquity. This is the way that Jewish writers of old interpreted this verse. We are all in the same boat. We were born into a world full of sin and we have been exposed to it from the day we entered the world. How can anyone imagine that it would not be a factor in our "going astray" or "becoming filthy?"

Some have put forth the idea that David was saying he was conceived when his mother committed fornication. I completely disagree with that idea. I see no evidence to even justify thinking such a thing. In my opinion it is far from a satisfying explanation for this verse.

We can also start dissecting the words in this verse and see much more than the "obvious" meaning that has filled so many textbooks and doctrinal books. "Shapen" means to "writhe or twist in pain." He says he was "shapen in iniquity." It is connected to the later part of the verse, which says, "and in sin did my mother conceive me." The word "sin" there means "a crime or its penalty." Take a look at Genesis 3:16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. - Gen. 3:16 Part of the result of sin entering the world through Adam and Eve is that childbirth is painful. David is saying that he entered the world in the midst of writhing and pain and it was because of the fact that sin had entered the world long ago. We surely see the effects and results of sin everywhere, but that doesn't mean that it is physically transmitted from generation to generation. It is a moral problem - not a physical problem. Sin has definitely affected the entire creation, but INFLUENCE is the way sin is spread - it hasn't done so by physically transmitting itself from one being to another.

Of course, Augustine, the father of this doctrine of devils, believed this verse to say that the union of David's parents in which he was conceived was sinful in itself. Augustine believed that intimacy between a man and woman was sinful because it involved lust. The fact that they were married made no difference, as far as he was concerned. He believed that sin was transmitted to the child because of the lust that was involved in the intimacy between husband and wife. Never mind that it is a natural desire given by God and also blessed by God inside a marriage relationship.

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. - Heb. 13:4

Of course, when you look at a verse with your mind already made up you just don't think about all those other verses that contradict your private interpretation.

So you see that there are other interpretations for Psalm 51:5, and they also fit much better with the rest of the Bible and its teaching on sin."

- Taken from "Are We Born Sinners" series of articles.


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Mike Wright

 2010/11/8 23:53Profile





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