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Naatmi, you say
"sinful flesh" just means sinful humanity, not our literal flesh. Jesus was in the likeness of sinful humanity."
But Jesus was without sin, and the only man who was without sin.
And on the cross, God did something with His son. He made Him to be SIN. This is much more than His atoning work for our SINS through the shedding of His precious blood. God made Him sin, and put him to death.
It was for us, so that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. In Him, we are made new creatures with a nature of the righteousness of God. Yes, we are made righteous through the cleansing of His blood, and this relates to our sins. But by faith in Him, our very nature is changed from sin to the righteousness of God Himself.
| 2010/11/8 21:20||Profile|
Whittier CA USA
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Could you please explain further what you meant by Finney rejecting that idea that sin can be a nature.
Do you mean to say that Finney believed that "we are sinners because we sin" instead of "we sin because we are sinners"?
Exactly, but he did not deny the fact that we are born with a "corrupt" nature which we inherited from Adam. He just did not call it a "sin nature" because it is unbiblical and it can easily lead sinners to justify themselves for their sins and blame God.
Romans 5:12 makes it very clear that when Adam sinned we all sinned in him and because of that we are guilty and condemned already because we sinned in Adam. Because of that guilt we inherit a corrupt nature and a perishable body as well. If we were not guilty of Adam's sin we would not even be born with perisable bodies or deformities.
| 2010/11/8 21:21||Profile|
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Whom did Jesus say is our father before we are born from above?
"You are of your father the devil".
When Christ is birthed in the believer, the believer receives a new Father, "Our Father".
Satan is and was and always will be the sin nature that entered into the world. If Satan is our father before new birth, no one can escape the sin nature, until God puts His incorruptable Seed Jesus Christ in the Believer, then Satan no longer rules with a rod of sin, but we are by Grace through Faith saved from sin and the old has now become new. We now are no longer serving sin but serving righteousness and Light and Love in Christ, by the Christ that is in us. Sin Nature of Satan out and righteousness by justification and regeneration of Christ born again in the believer. We either have the nature of Satan or we have the Nature of, "God our Father".
Man does not have the ability to defeat sin, for Satan nature is stronger than man. Only by the Birthing do we have the ability to defeat sin, by the Christ that is in us, who is our new nature in whom we live and move and have our being.
The only free will we have is to believe a lie, or believe the truth by Grace through faith, becoming the son's of whom we believe, Satan or Jesus Christ, whom we believe by the faith of the Son of God that is given to us in rebirth, satan out, Christ in, Christ is now whom we believe, the truth unto salvation, by Grace through the Faith of the Son of God given to every believer.
Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
His Faith: Ephesians 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
No longer walking in accordance with the prince of the power of the air, SATAN. Now walking in the life of Christ that is in me. For "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". IN CHRIST: Phillip
| 2010/11/8 21:23||Profile|
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I believe it was David who said, In sin did my mother concieve me.
It is interesting to note in Rom. 5-8 when it says "sin" that in the greek it includes the article "the" that many believe refers to a nature of sin in contrast to acts of sin. Man became depraved because they were deprived of the presence of God by their rebellion.
We are not responsible for the sin nature being there, but we are responsible for it remaining and controling us. We have no excuse.
People have tried spiritual utopia's to find that sin always found its way in. Why? Because man is sinful from the inside out. Jesus said it is from the heart that all sin comes from.
Evidence of depravity is seen in babies before they even have the capacity to sin.
| 2010/11/8 21:33||Profile|
Whittier CA USA
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JB1968, I forgot about the term "depraved" nature. Glad you brought it up. We are indeed depraved before we are born again by the Spirit. Man is not basically good or morally neutral. That is heresy and humanism. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that without regeneration man cannot obey or please God(Rom.8:7-8).
| 2010/11/8 21:46||Profile|
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I agree with you on Eph 2:3 and the NIV.
I have some slightly different thoughts on Roman 7, but maybe compatible with what you think.
Quote:I believe Paul personified sin in Romans 7 in order to show that our own sin is the bad guy, not the law. He called sin "another law" to contrast it with God's law, but this other law (sin/selfishness/carnality) was self-imposed. He was showing how a person victimizes themselves by their own sin. It's their own choice (carnality, selling themselves to sin) that makes them a wretched victim - not God's fair, just, obeyable law.
Romans 7 does not describe duality of nature and the battle between the two in the heart of a Christian.
Quote:Keeping God's law is good and possible. But a selfish person, who submits their mind to their flesh (carnal-minded), cannot obey God's law because it commands a spirit of love. A selfish person (carnal) has sold themselves to sin and made themselves like an unspiritual beast. Since the law is spiritual, a selfish person cannot obey it, even though they naturally agree with it and delight in it according to the inner man. Unless they obey it in spirit and not just outwardly, it will only condemn them for their inner sins (covetousness etc).
Placing it in context of Paul's teaching on Romans will show that Paul is describing the futility of trying to please God by keeping the law.
| 2010/11/8 21:54|
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Quote:Have you read Finney's Systematic Theology?
I don't think Finney was coming against the idea of original sin. ... Original sin was strongly taught by Finney ...
"They call it original sin, indwelling sin, a sinful nature, an appetite for sin, an attribute of human nature, and the like." ~ (Systematic Theology, Lecture 39, Moral Depravity)
"The doctrine of original sin, or of a sinful constitution, and of necessary sinful actions, represents the whole moral government of God, the plan of salvation by Christ, and indeed every doctrine of the gospel, as a mere farce. Upon this supposition the law is tyranny, and the gospel an insult to the unfortunate." ~ (Systematic Theology, Lecture 40, Moral Depravity)
"This doctrine represents sin as being of two kinds: original or constitutional, and actual--sin of substance, and sin of action; whereas neither the Bible, nor common sense acknowledges more than one kind of sin, and that consists in disobedience to the law." ~ (Systematic Theology, Lecture 40, Moral Depravity)
| 2010/11/8 22:11|
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Sin is a choice (intention, goal, etc).
Jesus being without sin means that Jesus did not choose sin.
Since sin is a choice, Jesus was not literally "made sin". It is a figurative phrase. Jesus didn't turn into a choice. It represents the fact that Jesus suffered for our sins when we are the one's who deserve to suffer for them. He offered up his life on account of our sins in order to justify pardon being granted to those who repent.
| 2010/11/8 22:20|
Whittier CA USA
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I have read Finneys Systematic Theology and he affirms that the human soul is depraved or corrupted. But he defined the issue in different terms than calvinists, so as not to give sinners any excuses whatsoever for their sins. He affirmed that there is something in all of us that causes us to be tempted to sin. So therein lied the difference. For Finney, the depraved nature caused temptation, not sin. For calvinists, the depraved nature causes sin, not just temptation.
| 2010/11/8 22:26||Profile|
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Let God be true, though every man is a liar.
Whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, you are absolutely worthless, sinful, rebellious, and condemned apart from Christ.
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Therefore, if you think you will be justified before God by doing the right thing, Ive got bad news for you: You cant do anything truly good, unless you are quickened by the Spirit of God and raised to life!
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
You have two options:
1) Slave to sin, or;
2) Slave of righteousness in Christ.
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
| 2010/11/8 22:34||Profile|