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knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 251


 Re:

myveryheart and star of God, your posts are laughable.



So how about we put your thoughts up on that screen I talked about? still think you are not capable of wickedness?


Not trying to call you out but 1000s of Christians who are trying to figure out how to please God are failing. And they do not know why. It's important to know what is going on.


Yes, according to God's eyes, the Bride is spotless. But as far as the rest of us, we live in the REAL world w/ failures. We are not pharisees that say we are now perfect and no longer need Jesus and Grace daily...


So as far as those of us who were offended by such a dumb and condemning statements, please forgive these people-

 2010/11/10 7:53Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

MyVeryHeart said:

Quote:
According to Romans 6, a Christian, by definition would not have an evil nature inside him. It would have been dead when they died with Christ and were raised to life with him. If a Christian has an evil nature then what is a new creation? Now the flesh is weak, and can be tempted to Sin, but the Spirit is willing and there is a way to overcome in Jesus for he was tempted in all ways as well.



Amen! It has so often been portrayed that Christians have a duality of nature. The most common picture I have heard painted was that of a white dog and a black dog living inside of us and the one we feed the most will be the one who dominates. The only scriptural support for this view is what I consider a gross misinterpretation of Roman's 7. When read in context with chapter 6 and chapter 8, chapter 7 quickly comes into context and makes sense in the flow of the letter. We are crucified with Christ. Our old man is dead. So, even if we had a "sin nature" it is gone now that we have been born again. Old things have passed away, all things are made new. The body of sin had been put to death. Romans 6 and 7 tie the law and sin together inextricably. The law, though holy, gave strength to sin, caused it to be known as exceedingly sinful, and caused us to die in our own efforts to keep a law that we knew to be just and holy and that in our spirits we longed to keep. When we died with Christ we died to the law. In doing this we quit trusting in our own effort to be righteous and received a righteousness that was not our own. We entered into the sabbath rest of faith in Christ. We ceased from our own labors. We became dead to sin and now we live in Christ or rather He lives through us.

The real danger in believing we have a "sin nature" is the tendency this idea has to keep us bound by sin. When we have a revelation of our new creation, of our regeneration, of being made completely righteous in our spirits, of being totally dead to sin, we then have power over sin like we never had before. We no longer see ourselves as locked in a struggle with an old nature trying to overcome it, but we see ourselves as walking in the liberty wherein Christ has made us free. (Of course I am talking about seeing ourselves in the spirit. Not psychology, but rather a spiritual reality that is revealed to us in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.) When we awake to righteousness we are empowered by God's grace to sin not. Recall the letter to Titus that teaches us that it is God's grace that teaches us not to sin. It is His graced that empowers us. When we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God, when we get a revelation of what we have been made in the spirit, when we awake to what we are, then we no longer strive in our own strength, but rely on His and have victory.


_________________
Travis

 2010/11/10 8:55Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Quote: This is exactly the problem: through the teaching of the sinful nature, Satan has stolen victory from the believer! Not in themselves, a thousand times no, but IN CHRIST! Sin is rebellion with God, and salvation is submission to God. Now the flipside to this, the flesh is very weak. And if we grieve the Spirit we can come into bondage to sin very easily. That is why we need to pick up our cross daily and crucify the flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is a serious daily walk of nailing that flesh, where no good thing dwells, to your cross.



Yes. The battle is not one of two conflicting natures, but it is the battle against the flesh. When I was born again, there was a part of me that was regenerated (spirit) and a part of me that was not (flesh or body, mind, and emotions). I am being transformed in my mind and emotions from glory to glory by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. But I will still battle the flesh. But now I have power to be victorious through Jesus Christ. However, if I do miss the mark and sin, I have an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus and I can rely on His grace and forgiveness, repent, and keep going with Him. Praise God for that!


_________________
Travis

 2010/11/10 8:59Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
myveryheart and star of God, your posts are laughable.



This isn't funny

Quote:
So how about we put your thoughts up on that screen I talked about? still think you are not capable of wickedness?



Every thought does not originate with us. Some are fiery darts shot by the devil. That is why we must bring every, every, every, thought captive to the obedience of Christ.


Quote:
Not trying to call you out but 1000s of Christians who are trying to figure out how to please God are failing. And they do not know why. It's important to know what is going on.



The reason that many who try to please God are failing is because they do not trust God but instead trust in their own flesh to please God. They have invented a form of Godliness that lacks the power thereof. they are striving in the Flesh. The flesh profits nothing.

Quote:
Yes, according to God's eyes, the Bride is spotless. But as far as the rest of us, we live in the REAL world w/ failures. We are not pharisees that say we are now perfect and no longer need Jesus and Grace daily...



God sees things as they really are. If his Bride is spotless then she is really spotless because the Holy Spirit is inside of her, she has been justified by Christ, and she mortifies the flesh daily,God has cleansed Her, he has done it SHE HAS NOT done it herself. She needs grace daily, and communion with her LORD daily, lest she die from want of HIM. You seem to be receiving some kind of strange teaching on the Bride of Christ. I am concerned for you.

Quote:
So as far as those of us who were offended by such a dumb and condemning statements, please forgive these people-



Unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees we will NOT enter the kingdom of Heaven. They where like clean cups on the outside but filthy on the inside. The children of the Kingdom are clean inside and out. And if they do happen to fall from Grace then the blood of Christ cleanses them as they confess their sin. The Children of the Kingdom are humble of heart and realize they are so needy of his Grace. That is why they are not Pharisees, they realize they are sinners and need the mercy of God every, every, every day. And so they ask God for it and they are justified.


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Travis

 2010/11/10 9:14Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
The real danger in believing we have a "sin nature" is the tendency this idea has to keep us bound by sin.



Or to use it to justify your sin.

Quote:
When we reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto God, when we get a revelation of what we have been made in the spirit, when we awake to what we are, then we no longer strive in our own strength, but rely on His and have victory.



Amen. It is Christ in us and it is by Faith (complete trust) in Him that we walk this out daily.


_________________
Travis

 2010/11/10 9:27Profile
TrueWitness
Member



Joined: 2006/8/10
Posts: 533


 Re:

I found the following essay by Jerry Bridges entitled Gospel Driven Sanctification. It has really helped me understand what it means for a Christian to be dead to sin. I am posting only a portion.

What does Paul mean when he says we died to sin? It's fairly obvious he doesn't mean we died to the daily committal of sin. If that were true, no honest person could claim to be justified because we all sin daily. None of us truly loves God with our whole being and none of us actually loves our neighbor as ourselves (see Matt. 22:35-40). Nor does it mean we have died in the sense of being no longer responsive to sin's temptations, as some have taught. If that were true, Peter's admonition to abstain from the passions of the flesh would be pointless (see 1 Pet. 2:11). So what does Paul mean?
Some Bible commentators believe that Paul means only that we have died to the penalty of sin. That is, because of our union with Christ, when Christ died to sin's penalty we also died to sin's penalty. Well, it certainly means that, but it also means much more. It also means we died to sin's dominion.
What is the dominion of sin? In Romans 5:21, Paul speaks of sin's reign. And in Colossians 1:13, he speaks of the domain of darkness. When Adam sinned in the Garden, we all sinned through our legal union with him (see Rom. 5:12-21). That is, because of our identity with Adam we all suffered the consequence of his sin. And a part of that consequence is to be born into this world under the reign or dominion of sin. Paul describes what it means to be under this dominion in Ephesians 2:1-3. He says we were spiritually dead; we followed the ways of the world and the devil; we lived in the passions of our sinful natures and were, by nature, objects of God's wrath.
This slavery to the dominion of sin then is part of the penalty due to our guilt of sin. Through our union with Christ in his death, however, our guilt both from Adam's and from our own personal sins was forever dealt with. Having died with Christ to the guilt of sin, we also as a consequence died to the dominion of sin. We cannot continue in sin as a dominant way of life because the reign of sin over us has forever been broken.
This death to the dominion of sin over us is known theologically as definitive sanctification. It refers to the decisive break with, or separation from, sin as a ruling power in a believer's life. It is a point-in-time event, occurring simultaneously with justification. It is the fundamental change wrought in us by the monergistic action of the Holy Spirit (that is, by the Spirit acting alone without human permission or assistance) when he delivers us from the kingdom of darkness and transfers us into the kingdom of Christ. This definitive break with the dominion of sin occurs in the life of everyone who trusts in Christ as Savior. There is no such thing as justification without definitive sanctification. They both come to us as a result of Christ's work for us.
Consider Yourselves Dead to Sin
So we are free from both the guilt and the dominion of sin. But what use is this information to us? How can it help us live out a gospel-based pursuit of sanctification? Here Paul's instructions in Romans 6:11 are helpful: "So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."
It is important we understand what Paul is saying here because he is not telling us to do something but to believe something. We are to believe that we are dead through Christ to both sin's penalty and its dominion. But this is not something we make come true by believing it. We simply are dead to sin, whether we believe it or not. But the practical effects of our death to sin can be realized only as we believe it to be true.
The fact is that we are guilty in ourselves, but God no longer charges that guilt against us because it has already been borne by Christ as our substitute. The sentence has been served. The penalty has been paid. We have died to sin, both to its guilt and to its dominion. That is why Paul can write, "Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin" (Rom. 4:8).
But the question arises, "If I've died to sin's dominion, why do I still struggle with sin patterns in my life?" The answer to that question lies in the word struggle. Unbelievers do not struggle with sin. They may seek to overcome some bad habit, but they do not see that habit as sin. They do not have a sense of sin against a holy God. Believers, on the other hand, struggle with sin as sin. We see our sinful words, thoughts, and deeds as sin against God; and we feel guilty because of it. This is where we must continue to go back to the gospel. To consider ourselves dead to sin is to believe the gospel.
This doesn't mean that we just believe the gospel and live complacently in our sin. Absolutely not! Go back again to Paul's words in Romans 6:1-2. We died both to sin's guilt and its dominion. Though sin can wage war against us (hence our struggle), it cannot reign over us. That is also part of the gospel. But the success of our struggle with sin begins with our believing deep down in our hearts that regardless of our failures and our struggle, we have died to sin's guilt. We must believe that however often we fail, there is no condemnation for us (Rom. 8:1).
William Romaine, who was one of the leaders of the eighteenth-century revival in England, wrote, "No sin can be crucified either in heart or life unless it first be pardoned in conscience.... If it be not mortified in its guilt, it cannot be subdued in its power." What Romaine was saying is that if you do not believe you have died to sin's guilt, you cannot trust Christ for the strength to subdue its power in your life. So the place to begin in dealing with sin is to believe the gospel when it says you have died to sin's guilt.
Progressive Sanctification
Warring against our sinful habits and seeking to put on Christlike character is usually called sanctification. But because the term definitive sanctification is used to describe the point-in-time deliverance from the dominion of sin, it is helpful to speak of Christian growth in holiness as progressive sanctification. Additionally, the word progressive indicates continual growth in holiness over time. The New Testament writers both assume growth (see 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Eph. 2:19-21; Col. 2:19; 2 Thess. 1:3); and continually urge us to pursue it (see 2 Cor. 7:1; Heb. 12:14; 2 Pet. 3:18). There is no place in authentic Christianity for stagnant, self-satisfied, and self-righteous Christians. Rather we should be seeking to grow in Christlikeness until we die.
This progressive sanctification always involves our practice of spiritual disciplines, such as reading Scripture, praying, and regularly fellowshipping with other believers. It also involves putting to death the sinful deeds of the body (see Rom. 8:13) and putting on Christlike character (see Col. 3:12-14). And very importantly it involves a desperate dependence on Christ for the power to do these things, for we cannot grow by our own strength.
So sanctification involves hard work and dependence on Christ; what I call dependent effort. And it will always mean we are dissatisfied with our performance. For a growing Christian, desire will always outstrip performance or, at least, perceived performance. What is it then that will keep us going in the face of this tension between desire and performance? The answer is the gospel. It is the assurance in the gospel that we have indeed died to the guilt of sin and that there is no condemnation for us in Christ Jesus that will motivate us and keep us going even in the face of this tension.

 2010/11/10 9:49Profile
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
What does Paul mean when he says we died to sin? It's fairly obvious he doesn't mean we died to the daily committal of sin. If that were true, no honest person could claim to be justified because we all sin daily



Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 6:14


_________________
Travis

 2010/11/10 10:00Profile









 Re: The "Sin Nature"


Quote:
It's fairly obvious he doesn't mean we died to the daily committal of sin. If that were true, no honest person could claim to be justified because we all sin daily

This statement shows exactly where Calvinism goes wrong. Suddenly, (for whatever reason), the focus goes off Christ, our Passover Lamb who was sacrificed for us, and on to me me me and my failures.

1 John 2
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


The overwhelming assertion of John's words are, that victory over sin is possible most of the time, and IF we sin, we have a great Advocate in the heavens, reminding our Father that He died for us.

It is entirely true, that each sin begins with a single thought, or springs from an unrenewed mind. However IF we believe that we are dead, or can reckon ourselves dead, then those thoughts can be repelled. We don't need to take ownership of them, or, we can choose to bury them in Christ's death immediately.

For by one offering He has perfected [completed] for ever, them that are sanctified [being sanctified = setting themselves apart for, and, looking unto Him]. (Heb 10:14).

 2010/11/10 10:18









 Re:

And God's Word emphasizes the positive, right?

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

If you are walking in the Spirit, the lusts of the flesh will be a non-factor. You will not fulfill them.

If this is the Christian's avenue to victory of the flesh, maybe we should look into what "walking in the Spirit", really is.

 2010/11/10 10:24
MyVeryHeart
Member



Joined: 2010/8/30
Posts: 449
Paradise, California

 Re:

Quote:
If this is the Christian's avenue to victory of the flesh, maybe we should look into what "walking in the Spirit", really is.



As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: Colossians 2:6


_________________
Travis

 2010/11/10 10:37Profile





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