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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Coming Out of The Church: The Remnant Heresy

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live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



Personally I don't believe it necessary to draw a line between house churches and 'institutionalized churches'. I think when God has chosen to pour out his Spirit upon a body of believers, sometimes it has been upon a body who happened to be in a Baptist church, Pentecostal church etc. Many times when genuine revivals have occurred they have occurred in a local Baptist church or Alliance church, but as other believers have become stirred by God they have come to become a part of what has been happening at this church (read building) that happened to be the location God was using to demonstrate his power and presence. If you look at some of the ways in which God was revealed himself in the life of Mark Greening and the believers he has fellowshipped with, this has taken place in a house church.

As 2 Chronicles 16 :9 says :
"For The Eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him."

In Jesus,
John

 2010/10/3 20:13Profile









 Re:

I think the right thing would be to determin what is "fellowship". That would be a good starting place. If you think that your Sunday 1.5 hour programed service is fellowship then you are grossly mistaken. Let's lay the foundation and build from there....

 2010/10/3 20:14









 Re:

Quote:
Personally I don't believe it necessary to draw a line between house churches and 'institutionalized churches'.



That is exactly the point that has been made several times in this thread. Totally agree.

I actually fellowship with Believers that are in denominations, para-church organizations and house churches and those that are not part of anything (outward). I'm in a house church. Big deal!

The most important thing is are you "in Christ". If there is a "place" to be, that is the place. And those that are "in Christ", seek out fellowship.

Why limit yourself when you know Believers are all over the place.

Fellowship: sharing your life and His life. Not listening to sermons and doing projects.

 2010/10/3 20:27
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

WOW - it seems as though many needed to read your article - PRAISE GOD! Be encouraged KingJimmy may God give us all ears to hear!

Fellowship (koinōnia) simply means partnership or participation.

Agreed, Sunday service only is a stretch to be called fellowship, but you would be VERY hard pressed to find a church these days that stops at Sunday service. Most churches these days have numerous other opportunities to "fellowship" other then Sunday service consisting of life groups, ministry opportunities, community groups, small group Bible study etc. These are all wonderful opportunities to connect and love other believers, providing wonderful opportunities to share and discuss issues such as "The Real Gospel", "Holiness", "what it means to be a Christian or follower of Christ" etc. I found that the vast majority are more then happy to discuss these and many other issues when approached in a kind, loving and non-judgmental way.

Patrick


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2010/10/3 20:34Profile









 Re: Coming Out of The Church: The Remnant Heresy



'But it's definitely a starting point. And that 1.5 hours this person is getting is more than some on here, unfortunately, are getting week to week.'

Hi KJ,

You don't seem to believe the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, and that as we read scripture, share with the Christians we know in person (whether in a formal meeting or by phone, Skype or internet), and grow in the Lord through fellowship with Him and others, we are, actually, doing what scripture says.

It's a great idea to have a nice, safe, handy, local body to join with regularly, but it's not that simple for those who have learned what is, and what is not, 'fellowship'.

I've been lectured more than once about the importance of being 'in a church' (meaning, formal denomination with an internal hierarchy), so that I can be 'in submission', but I am totally certain this is not what Paul meant when he wrote Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

What I experience as 'oversight', is through distant brethren to whom God has bonded me in the Spirit, under whom I have freedom to live in peace, and hear from the Lord as He speaks to me, and 'do' what He puts in my heart (although it can be Christians who make that difficult to achieve sometimes), and, most of all, the Holy Spirit holding me back from making serious mistakes. That's oversight. For example, what AD wrote in this thread, and Pilgrim777, and Neil, I can agree completely.

I remember you are in favour of 'pastors' having as large a salary as their congregation can afford them. This suggsts to me that you have a blind spot about money, and when you read the New Testament, the many times it is mentioned (and the consequences of taking it too seriously), do not leap out at you like animated red lights. If I'm mistaken, I do apologise.

I do not need to be forced to put my name to a 'statement of faith' document, other than scripture, and, it is definitely possible to get more from a week's Bible study on one's own, than comes from even 3 hours preaching in some churches on a Sunday.

This is not to say that I don't miss being able to join with like-minded people several times a week to pray, praise and share the word in person, but there is a great need for someone who actually knows the Lord, to let God send them from their current comfy fellowship, into the wilds of my city, and become the pastor of one tiny part of the veritable flock of unhappy believers who cannot settle under the teaching by which others are being led astray into all kinds of false doctrine. Some of us have had to jump out of the slowly warming put, before we became a dead toad, who cannot jump anywhere.

My understanding of your denominational experiencess are that you've been fairly blessed to have grown up under genuinely biblical teaching and practice. Furthermore, you can go and tangle with the Greek to improve your understanding. It's for people who are TOTALLY dependent on what is said from the platform, that there is a concern. It is for them it is VITALLY important that if there going to be only ONE person doing ALL the preaching, that it must be as fully and undilutedly, the whole word of God as it is in the Bible - nothing less, and certainly nothing MORE.

 2010/10/3 20:53
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Jimmy said, "That is ultimately why I cannot tolerate this idea of a remnant, and the dividing of Christians from Christians, and am so bold as to call it heresy."

By that reasoning, Jimmy, you would not have been able to tolerate most of the moves of the Spirit throughout history, moves that came about when brethren just couldn't tolerate anymore what their "church" had become... and so sought God, often in anguish about it all. And He was found of them. And they were often misunderstood, even persecuted, by those in the "church" they had left behind. Of course, and sad to say, many of these fresh moves became another denomination over time, and once again hungry brethren had to seek God again. That's the story over and over throughout history.

And so it is today. Many are weary of the fare being served up in the traditional churches, and are seeking God afresh.

Sometimes it means they must walk alone, and I'm sorry, Jimmy, to see you picking on certain ones who have found it necessary to walk alone. You'd think you'd understand the pain of longing for a certain quality of fellowship, and being unable to find it.

I encourage you to search your heart about that, young brother.

And I would just say... if you are content where you are, happy where you are, by all means stay where you are. Nobody is trying to tell you to do otherwise.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/10/3 20:56Profile









 Re: Coming Out of The Church: The Remnant Heresy

Hi Christisking,

The way you wrote 'simply means partnership or participation', makes it sound as if you think the participation is to be in discussions, and the partnership is in promoting church activities. (I realise you didn't say that in so many words.)


Whereas, koinonia is about being IN Christ - being made to drink into one Spirit, becoming able to remember His death till He comes, and, having the love of God shed abroad in our hearts and expressed towards others. Unless this foundation is in place, all the other stuff is a pure frustration

 2010/10/3 21:12
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Whereas, koinonia is about being IN Christ - being made to drink into one Spirit, becoming able to remember His death till He comes, and, having the love of God shed abroad in our hearts and expressed towards others. Unless this foundation is in place, all the other stuff is a pure frustration



Of course! AMEN!


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2010/10/3 21:15Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Jimmy, this thread has definitely surprised me, even though I don't know you. First, you seem to be advocating strongly for continuing with a group of people who are not practicing the faith given to us by Jesus. And the best reason is that there have been groups of professing Christians before us who have not been serious about God?

Quote:
To refuse to fellowship together with those who are really saved, and live within proximity to you, is nothing less than outright error, and without any Biblical support whatsoever.



You are right! Does anyone know why they won't fellowship with us? We are waiting, but the sad truth is, they reject us, malign us, scheme against us, and would never be caught dead with us in public or in private. "None dare associate with them" was true of an earlier group also. That group did not have the sexual immorality, greed, and pride that you indicate should be accepted as normal, and as they were followers of Jesus, I think any of us would be glad to associate with them intimately.

 2010/10/3 21:23Profile
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re:

Quote:
That is ultimately why I cannot tolerate this idea of a remnant, and the dividing of Christians from Christians, and am so bold as to call it heresy. If Jesus is living in both of us, and laboring through both of us, then both of us need to figure out a way to get along together. Going out into some imaginary wilderness to be alone day after day, week after week, and year after year, and living a separated life from brethren within your proximity, is simply not a Biblical idea.



Jimmy, I understand and appreciate many points in your posts, but Christianity must be very different where you live than where I live. There are not necessarily a lot of churches, but where there are, the majority of the people are not interested in talking about Jesus or the Scriptures. I have even been asked to leave a church. Someone might ask, what did you say? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not one word to the pastor or the people of the church. The pastor visited us and told us that families like ours that sought to be orderly and serious about God were "an offense to the others in the church". He also told us we were not a part of "real life". Again, you have to remember that we had no influence (that we were aware of) on one single person at this church, nor did we ever criticize the pastor publicly or privately (or even think about it). This church has in its name "Bible church" and considers itself "evangelical" and "born again". They teach a great deal of Scripture from the pulpit.

Brother, that is my experience, so I cannot at all relate to yours or what you are saying. "The churches" hate us, out and out. There is a burning enmity in the churches against the people of God, those who love Christ. I know there are true, Christ-loving, God-worshiping churches out there, but that is why there are people not connected to "churches". And not everyone is gifted to start one. So, I don't think you are right to point that finger of divisiveness one way. In fact, you are wrong and need to stop accusing people without knowing their situation. You have become a judge, brother, and no longer an exhorter.

If you had qualified your post, there is no doubt its points apply to some, possibly many. Unfortunately, it is no longer valid. I haven't even begun to address how most churches want to control those who would join them. In most of these groups, one can never hope to become a productive or active member of the body of Christ.

 2010/10/3 21:38Profile





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