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 Re:

I am amazed that this thread has garnered such attention.

I guess many care for jimmy and want to see him more balanced.

EDIT ADD

jimmy while your intent I cannot fully judge I can only go by what you have posted.
I would suggest you refrain from using words like "children in a sandbox and other little demeaning, sly remarks that you pepper some of your posts with.

When you do this it reveals a condescending attitude. It reveals also that you need more tempering and maturing.

We all need to be carefull when introducing certain subjects on a forum.

 2012/5/14 6:06
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I think it is easy just as with any other teaching to take a way "left" or "right" position and denounce everything else.



I couldn't agree more. If there is a lesson in this thread, it is that we should not confuse our ability to see trends with our ability to discern motives. People leave churches for a variety of reasons, and they stay in churches for a variety of reasons as well.

Quote:
We all need to be carefull when introducing certain subjects on a forum.



Again, I couldn't agree more. In an environment like this where there are so many ideas and voices, is tempting to use controversial and provocative statements to stand out and be heard. This is not a flaw in anyone's character per se, but a dynamic of social media that we should be aware of.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2012/5/14 15:22Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

jimmy while your intent I cannot fully judge I can only go by what you have posted.
I would suggest you refrain from using words like "children in a sandbox and other little demeaning, sly remarks that you pepper some of your posts with.



Noted.

I only use such imagery for illustration purposes. I don't use it to demean, but to only bring to light hidden things. And while such illustrations may come across as abrasive to many, and rub some people in the wrong way, ultimately at the end of the day, I think they will usually only ruffle the feathers of those whose feathers are in need of ruffling.

No doubt, I concede I have pushed things a little too far in this thread.

But ultimately at the end of the day, I am very concerned. You have many people claiming that God actually told them to do something that God never told anybody else to do in all of sacred Scripture. And not only that, you have these same people saying God told them to do the actual opposite thing which we as Christians are commanded to do. The Scriptures have commanded to not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, but to gather all the more as the day of the Lord draws near. That word is universal, and applies to you, no matter where you live, and what side of church history you are in. And as God would have it, here we are in are what undoubtedly the last days, and you have large segments of Christians saying God told them to stop gathering with other genuine born again Christians, because of x, y, and z. I have discovered that there are Christians who are claiming God told them to do the exact opposite of what God has actually commanded us to do, and all the more so in the very times we live in!

If this were merely a private revelation that God was but calling these individuals to for a short season, I would not object. If it were but a fast of some sort, I would be entirely ok with this. But we have a dreadful problem. The problem is that many of these saints have been "out" of the church for years, and any gatherings they participate in are few and far in between. And not only this, these individuals are not only claiming that God commanded they do this, but they are also preaching what they are doing as being part of a larger movement that others should participate in.

This is a terrible claim that departs further from the clear teaching of Scripture, and the model left to us by the apostles. It is actually a movement that causes us to further drift from the apostolic model than the traditional institutions have done that have existed in Christianity for about 1900 years. Far from being a movement that is about purity, in practice, it actually only further perverts the model the apostles left to us to follow. I'm sorry, but I simply cannot tolerate or stomach something claiming to be prophetic when it in fact does nothing but perpetuate further perversion in the lives of others.

Proponents of this idea can claim Revelation 18:4 all they want as their Scriptural justification for refusing to gather together with other believers in their locality. But such a violent misuse of the Scriptures to justify their "God told me" mindset is something that fails to actually stand up to what God has actually told us and revealed to us in His word. This sort of mishandling of the Scriptures is known as nothing more than proof-texting. It is taking a random verse of the Bible, and making it mean whatever you want it to mean, with total disregard to the actual context of the passage.

The fact of the matter is, Revelation 18:4 says nothing about forsaking the assembling of yourselves together because you've detected impurities in whatever form your local fellowships have taken. Revelation 18:4 doesn't care if your local churches have theological errors in them. It doesn't care if the hearts of the people in your local congregations have become dull. It doesn't care if the preaching is watered down. It doesn't care if the deacons are sleeping with somebody besides their own wives.

Let's read what the actual verse says:
Quote:

"Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;" (Revelation 18:4)



This is a call for you to not participate in the sins of the spirit of this age. It is a call for you to not allow your own mind and heart to be seduced by whatever is going on in the world around you. For the failure of you to check your heart, mind, and your actions, Revelation 18:4 says, will cause you to participate in the judgments and plagues being poured out upon the world in the last days. And to use it in a way that somehow causes you to forsake the assembling of yourselves together with other believers, no matter how imperfect they might be theologically, or immature they might be in their walk, is something that is simply unconscionable. And I would be so bold as to say that those of you who are using this verse in this way, and have taken up the specific mindset I have addressed since the beginning of this thread, however long ago it was that we started all this fuss, I would say that you are in fact the one's who are in danger of receiving the punishments of Revelation 18:4.

The mindset you have embraced is false. And the word you claim God has told you is contrary to the one revealed in Scripture. To be blunt, I believe God would say to you: You have believed and perpetuated a lie. And there is grave danger in that. And the danger is all greater when you invite others to participate in that lie.

Now, this word many of you will undoubtedly reject. And I'm ok with that. I will lose no sleep over it. I have bigger fish to fry elsewhere, and things that are of greater concern. And frankly, things for which I am ultimately much more passionate about. Topics such as the resurrection of the dead, and the ultimate purposes of God come to mind.

But I say these things --all of it-- ultimately out of great concern and love. Love not only for you, even in my usage of over the top language, and a love for the random people who will read this thread but not post in it, but ultimately, a fierce jealousy for the word of God, and what God hath said. It is a love and a jealousy that propels me to constantly reach out and pour myself into the lives of people around me. Not only in real life, but in whatever degree it is possible here.

In fact, when God filled me with His Spirit about a dozen or so years ago, at the time I was not a part of any local church. I had been out of church for a while. But the day and the hour He poured His Spirit upon me, I felt a strong compulsion to involve myself in the life of the local church. And not only do I feel this compulsion burning in me like fire, I see this compulsion burned deeply into the writings of the apostles, and the teachings of our Lord. No matter how tired I may sometimes feel, no matter how busy I may be, and no matter what may be going on in my life, I feel deeply compelled to serve the local body of Christ, which I in fact knows exists in many localities throughout this country, and throughout this world.

I have participated in small gatherings in coffee shops, living rooms, and cathedrals. I have participated in very loosely organized expressions of the body, and I have participated in heavily organized ones as well. I've seen the good, the bad, and the ugly. I know what it is to be rejected, celebrated, and everything in between. I've been in churches where pastors regarded me as a false prophet who they needed to shut down. And I've been in churches where I was regarded as the real McCoy. I know what it is like to feel like leaving a church. I know what it is like to be inwardly tormented and grieved over sins and situations in local fellowships.

I also know what it is like to weep with great joy in the presence of my brethren over what Christ is doing in our midst, and to see saints grow, mature, and go on from faith to faith and glory to glory. I know what it is like to pour yourself into hardened backsliders, who although claiming to be saved, are running around, partying hard, and sleeping with anything that will move. And then to see God finally break through to them, so that they cease doing those things, and are now leading others to Christ, and teaching others how to follow Him.

And all this, I know in the context of the local church. The local church which many of you who will have nothing to do with, and are claiming that God is drawing people out of, to be part of something you are calling "the remnant." Forgive me for my passion and overstating things, or any remarks that may be interpreted as condescending and rude. I understand we all have some very unique situations and may live in some very small towns in which it is possible that there are no other Christians to fellowship with. I get that, really, I do. What I say is not directed towards you.

What I have said, however, has been to a very specific attitude and mindset. And in that, I'm not talking about people who have what would be deemed "non-traditional" churches i.e. house churches. I'm all for house churches. I have never nor will I ever come out against them in any way, shape, or form. But what I have in mind here, is the attitude of simply those who are schismatic, but don't even realize it. That is, they are the heretic who has cast a blanket judgment upon the churches of their locality, and declared Ichabod over all of them, although God has in fact, done no such thing. Some of you imagine yourselves prophets and participants in some special secret and hidden movement of God. In fact, you are not a prophet, and although you may be participating in a movement, it is not of God.

Indeed, for some of you, God is in fact doing a great work in the midst of many of your local assemblies. But some of you refuse to see this. You can only see your cause, and have made an idol out of your pet doctrine. And it is a shame. Because some of you are actually great people, with great giftings, and with much to offer. And you have much that you still are in need of receiving. But you are unable to do either, because you willfully belong to no local body of believers, and refuse to gather with others. You have imposed an exile upon yourselves, and you suffer for it. Your fellowship consists of internet forums, e-mails, phone calls, and special conferences. Which is sad. Because for some of you, there is actually a good church just a few miles down the road from where you live.

I don't apologize if this post is very personal and direct. This is not an impersonal, formal, or academic essay. It's something that I hope will be much more pastoral, and Lord willing, parts of it might even be prophetic to some of you. I pray for nothing but healing to emerge in these words, and for nothing but the blessing of Christ to perpetuate into your lives. That is my honest and earnest prayer. It is the deepest cry of my heart.

*edited for grammar/clarity*


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/5/14 19:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't apologize if this post is very personal and direct.



Me neither Jimmy.

If you believe that Renovatus is one of the good churches of these days, then you have got a lot to learn yet. Out of courtesy to you I listened to the latest sermon where Twitter and Facebook dominated the scene. I wasted too many hours listening to that prototypical nonsense many years ago, and the nonsense I wasted my time with before was better than what I just wasted the last hour listening to. I would have to be dead to be hauled into that church, and if that were to happen my spirit would be beseeching God to raise my body for another 30 seconds so I get up and leave the building shaking the dust off my feet as I left.

That church is among the best of examples of the heathen overrunning the pulpits. Partake at your own risk.


OJ

 2012/5/14 21:08
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Renovatus is a good church. It's not without it's faults. But knowing a few of the saints there, and having spent some time in their midst, I know them to be a very serious minded body that loves the Lord. And if you wish to walk out on such a people, you are rejecting a people in whom Christ dwells.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2012/5/14 21:21Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

This thread has been painful to read. My dear brethren, SermonIndex is not the place to feud like this. When we engage in such debates and accusations we expose our immaturity and lack of spiritual wisdom regardless of where we worship or with whom we worship. Being a part of an organized structure or separated from it is completely irrelevant when we bite and claw each other in public before all the world. Worship where God will have you worship and be lead by the Lord and do it as unto the Lord, and judge not the motives of your neighbor's heart by the non-conformity of his actions to your convictions. Especially refrain from critical spiritual judgment over such a dry, faceless means as an internet website.

I am terminating this discussion.

Brother Paul


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Paul Frederick West

 2012/5/14 21:47Profile





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