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hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Surprising view brother Jimmy, seeing you have a great appreciation for brothers as Art Katz. (myself having listened to most of his sermons and reading much of what he has writen) i would say follow God if that means stay or leave, God puts us in different situations, there are times to stay and times to leave. Some words of wisdom from Zac Poonen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAM3YjynoAg

We can not judge oneanother for going or staying, but we can encurage oneanother to seek what God says in scripture and how he speaks into our situation. God may lead Jimmy to stay, and another brother in that exact same church to leave, and both are in Gods will.

just some thoughts.


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CHRISTIAN

 2012/5/12 19:31Profile









 Re:

[edit out]. Follow Jesus and the apostles teachings and pattern. You wont go wrong.

 2012/5/12 20:11
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
If you are saved, love the Lord and love your neighbor as yourself, and if the life of Christ is in you, you will never be alone long. If you are a mature saint you will lead others to the Lord and you will form and be a part of Christian community. Some of you have been alone a while and have had very sporadic fellowship because your Christian walk isn't what you imagine it to be. And you are in a place that the Lord has not brought you. The glory for you has long departed. No wonder you haven't led anybody to the Lord in years, and no wonder you can't play nice with your brethren.



You will (and already are) get a lot of heat for saying this, but this is true. No matter who disagrees with it.

Proverbs 18:1 He who separates himself seeks his own desire, He quarrels against all sound wisdom.

 2012/5/12 21:18Profile









 Re:

Even a root of bitterness is cancer to the soul, especially among the immature. May the Lord pour out His Spirit upon His children............bro Frank

 2012/5/12 21:40
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Amen brother Frank.

 2012/5/12 21:49Profile









 Re:

Brother Allen said way back on page 1
=====================================

Jimmy said, "But God has called us to stick at it..."

Stick at what, Jimmy?

What about His call to "come out of her, My people..." (Rev. 18.4).

God never ordained the denominatinal system in the first place. I know, He has used it, and He uses men who are in it. Of course He does. His people are there.

But there comes a time when He says loud and clear, "COME OT OF HER MY PEOPLE..."

Come out of her... who? The rebels? The heretics? No. Come out of her MY PEOPLE.

I am all for the assembling together of the saints. But if people would lay that to heart -- that Scripture about not forsaking the assembling of yourselves together, Heb. 10.25 -- they would be leaving the denominational system in droves! That's not what the Holy Spirit means by being assembled together!

I remember once a brother talking about this, and using an illustration from boyhood. He said he used to love building models, cars and planes and so on... and he'd look at the beautiful picture of the model on the box... How beautiful that '57 Chevy looked. But then it would say, "Assembly required."

THAT's true assembling: being fit together so that each individual part is functioning in the capacity the designer had in mind for it when he made it, and so becomes a vital part of a beautiful whole.

Just because you have all those parts together in the box does not mean they are assembled.

Just because you have a hundred or a thousand Christians in a big... "box" does not mean they are assembled.

And that's what's happening in this hour, Jimmy. That's why people are leaving. People are leaving "the box" because they are tired of being isolated RIGHT THERE IN THE BOX, tired of being just jumbled together with a whole bunch of other parts that aren't really fitting together the way the Designer intended. They are feeling unfulfilled, and they are leaving. It's of GOD. He is the one who has put it into the hearts of His people to become ASSEMBLED in beautiful unity... to the praise of His glory.

Sure, at this time we are not seeing that quite yet. The home churches themselves have not yet become assembled the way God has in mind. But they are going to be. More and more as we learn to give the ASSEMBLER His Lordship in our midst, we are going to see a beautiful -- and fearsome -- manifestation of the living CHRIST in the midst of His people... I mean in every single one of them from the least to the greatest.

 2012/5/12 22:00









 Re:

Often times people who have decided to come out of the established church have been accused of many things, among them anger. I am personally not in fellowship with any angry people. I have seen comments on this thread and even the OP ( which is fleshed out later by comments) which show anger and bitterness. Let us not forget, that no matter what side of this subject that we may be on, bitterness and anger is always going to be dangerous to the soul. It causes pride and self promotion and begins to eat away at the soul. If we believe that our brothers or sisters are in error, genuine error, that should lead us to sadness and prayer. Speak the truth yes, boldly even, yes, but in love.........bro Frank

 2012/5/12 22:15
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

What if Art Katz whom you respect so highly? In a sense he was a renegade as he did not fit into a traditional church model. Granted be had associations with many traditional church leaders. Yet by your own definition it could be said he was a wounded schismatic because of the community he started up there in rural Minnesota. I know you do not believe this. Or at least I do not think you believe this.



To clarify:

I am not speaking here, nor was I originally, of anybody who leaves the traditional denominational, or even non-denominational church structures. I am all for house churches and fellowships like that which Art Katz planted. My own theology is much more in agreement with such fellowships than it is with any traditional model of church. Although currently, I'm involved in a very traditional church scene.

In my original essay, and most recent post, I only have in mind here only the individual who has done nothing more than gone rogue, and has virtually declared anathema over every church in the towns and cities in which they sojourn. I only have in mind here brethren so full of their own piety, doctrine, and ministries that they have found the inability to get along and fellowship with brethren who are still in "institutional" circles. I only have in mind here individuals who sit at home and pretend that they alone are left, with the exception of some random people they come in contact with, or meet through Sermon Index fashioned ministries and conferences.

God never called a people to forsake the regularly assembling of themselves together, as is the habit of some, so that they could blog about it over the internet, and find some sort of narcissistic comfort in a mutual lamentation that there are others out there just like them.

I could personally care less whether you meet in a living room or a cathedral. I have my conviction in the matter. Personally, theological wrangling about the location one meets bores me to tears. And I'm quite convinced the Lord could care less too. Yes, I am one hundred percent convinced He could care less. Which is why I am happy as a clam to meet in living rooms, coffee shops, and cathedral style buildings just the same. And interestingly enough, I've found the Lord to show up powerfully in all three. Jesus Christ is Lord of all the earth. He is all and in all.

Yes, it is true that the traditional institutional churches are formed upon faulty theological patterns that deviate from the pattern given by the apostles. And I'm all about doing things according to their patterns. But if some of my brethren in the traditional churches haven't discovered that pattern for themselves, I'm not going to refuse to have fellowship with them, nor am I going to refuse to gather with them, nor am I going to refuse to participate in whatever work they are doing. And I'm certainly not going to run around crying, "come out of her My people."

If you want to start a house church or an Art Katz style fellowship, wonderful. May God bless you richly in your efforts to do the work He's called you to do. You have my full support. I feel called to a similar work one day myself. But! If you feel God has called you to shun every church in your town, and all you do is sit around at home praying, reading your Bible, and blogging about the remnant God has called you to be, then I have nothing but rebuke for you. God has no more called you to do that than God has called anybody to divorce their wife.


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Jimmy H

 2012/5/13 1:29Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Even a root of bitterness is cancer to the soul, especially among the immature. May the Lord pour out His Spirit upon His children............bro Frank



I don't have a bitter bone in my body. I've been hurt too deeply to ever be bitter.


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Jimmy H

 2012/5/13 2:09Profile
Trekker
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Joined: 2011/7/29
Posts: 683
northern USA

 Re: Coming Out of The Church: The Remnant Heresy

Well i'm sorry Jimmy but just because you say it doesn't make it so. Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there ARE some people who leave for the reasons you give in your post and who think of themselves as prophets, etc. But plenty have left simply due to the rampant heresy and apostasy in the churches today. Not every community has churches as wonderful as your's (IF indeed your's are Biblical and wonderful; i wouldnt know just as you don't know the ones in mine) and yes Jimmy, God HAS called some people out of churches. It is written, "Come out from among them and be ye separate..." and "touch not the unclean thing". God does NOT want His children to be fellowshipping with apostates and heretics. For it is written, "Rebuke a heretic once or twice and after this have nothing more to do with him,...". When this is only describing one man or a couple people in the church one does not have to leave but if it describes the pastor and/or church leadership then it is best to leave if they won't listen to scripture. Jesus prophesied that before his return there WOULD be worldwide apostasy. We are seeing that today, with every single major denomination having apostasized. Homosexuals in the pulpits is only the most blatant form, the subtle ones are much more spiritually dangerous and i dont believe for a minute that God want's His children there. God wants fellowship between His children, yes, but nowhere in His Word does He ever say it has to be in a church building, what day of the week it has to be, how often it has to be, or how many people one has to gather with. Instead He said, "Where two or three are gathered in my Name,..."

Let the dead bury their dead. The churches of America are filled with dead mens' bones. If you have found one that is not, good for you. Hip Hip Hooray! But don't anyone DARE judge me or others who are not members of an "official" religious building created by organized religion. You don't know my circumstances or where i live or anything whatsoever about me and ANY attempt to judge is nothing but pious self-righteousness. Your post may be written in love but there have been far too many i have met who are anything but. And if all the self-righteous church people care so much about those of us who do not attend an "official" gathering, why do you never visit nor call those who you so self-righteously criticize for leaving??? If you behaved like REAL brethren and a REAL family they probably wouldn't have left in the first place.

 2012/5/13 8:49Profile





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