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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Coming Out of The Church: The Remnant Heresy

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 precious codek

you testified so fearlessly and honestly:

"I'm burnt out and I'm dying literally. I have no job, money is running out, health is failing, I've lost all my friends, and even my family has turned cold. I've lost a lot and the future looks bleak but how do we solve this problem?

What can we do? What does God want us to do?"

beloved, until a week ago, i was right where you are at...for a year and a half, and the only Thing, besides the kindness of a few friends and family, what kept me going was that God never took away a hunger to stay in the Word every morning....i'd read, then i'd talk to Him, He'd talk to me...then the world would crush me as the day wore on, hence those mornings with Jesus became more valuable than rubies...and as for my 'oppressors', whether it be my flesh, the devil, or the 'philistines at Lachish' i was encamped among, the temptation to sin via rage and anger was ever present, but the Holy Ghost told me, 'now is the time to engage in an impossible love and forebearance, because i love you, and this time of pressing and testing will pass".

Jesus wept Blood at Gethsemane, and so shall we at times, it hurts, its not fun, you see no end, but this too shall pass, and He shall lead you into greener pastures.

many a time, absolutely cratered and helpless, i remembered and breaThed this simple prayer of the apostles, "Increase our faith".

when in "Lachish" and/or Gethesemane, all you can do is pray, believe you have recieved and it will be yours.

i speak the truth in Christ, i am not lying. May the Grace and Mercy and Love of God the Father, and Jesus Christ His Son be with you, always, amen.



 2010/10/10 11:52









 Re:

Thank you Codek for your honesty. (You may want to scribble out a s s and put something like, a**, we'll get the picture).

Since your health is failing, that should be your top priority. You need to be healthier than you are now if your going to do anything constructive for yourself, your family and the kingdom of God. It's easy for me to speak this way because I am not in your shoes, but like Natan said, that doesn't mean we were never there.

I hear a lot of "trying" in your post and no wonder your burnt out.

If your obese with diabetes, heart trouble etc.., than you need to look after your health, I can't stress the importance of tending to yourself first before you can tend to anyone else for that matter.

If you can't go to Church then don't, stay home. The only one that will condemn you is yourself, and if you hear the devil condemn for not going to Church then that is a sure thing not to go.

Get healthier! :-)

 2010/10/10 12:14









 Re: Coming Out of The Church: The Remnant Heresy


Today, Carter Conlon preached Revival is Coming and What it Will Look Like. I need to listen to it again, but I felt it was more tender towards people in churches who are battling on against the odds, who need to be revived.

http://sermon3a.tscnyc.ws/2010/mp3g/20101010S1.mp3

 2010/10/10 18:59









 Re: The Remnant is real.

I see the Clergy Laity/Priest Class as Heresy [Nicolaitan], along with the One man as Pastor/leader, as a much deeper true heresy than the "Remnant" doctrine; which certainly does have some scriptural authority.

[3rd John is the only reference to one man running the church, and was soundly rebuked by the Apostle John.] The Priest class, according to the Word, extends to the very least of the believer; as "a nation of kings and Priests.

Jesus also directly confronts this heresy in Revelation 2 and 3, stating the He hates their deeds, and their teaching....The Lords or Kings over my people.

The traditional churches are hemmoraging members at an alarming rate and fleeing to anywhere that has a semblence of reality and life. The "home church" model seems to be exploding, often providing real body ministry and authentic relationships while striving to provide a more "Primitive Church" model in their communities.

I do not see the traditional pulpit based, tithe oriented, pew sitting churches surviving. I believe that this is a last day work of the Lord, in the process of bearing pure fruit to the Lord, and it is World-Wide.

I see the remnant as that Bride who has made herself ready by learning how to love God and people, while having learned to walk by faith, in relationship to the Word. They are written in the Lambs book of Life.

In the end, it will be these who inherit the Promises and wear White....and as the children of Israel who survived the dispersion in captivity, and were called a remnant, it is appropiate to name this church the same. The times, they are a changin'....and for the purposes of the Lord, not men.

 2010/10/10 23:25









 Re:

Amen, BrotherTom!

Everything is being shaken until those things that cannot be shaken (Of Him) may remain.

I have been reading some articles on the Pastor/Clergy dropout/burnout rate.

According to estimates by the Alban Institute in Washington, D.C., at least 17 percent of clergy suffer from stress or burnout, “The Charlotte Observer” reported. About 1,400 ministers a year call a toll-free hot line of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), which counsels ministers through its LeaderCare program. Brooks Faulkner, a LeaderCare counselor, estimates that nearly 100 SBC pastors leave their ministry every month.

Sunscape Ministries of Colorado, which serves clergy in crises, reported that in all denominations nationwide, 1,600 ministers per month are terminated or forced to resign their pulpit, “The Abilene Reporter-News” reported. Although a sense of hurt is unavoidable for both pastor and congregation, it is particularly traumatic for a minister who steps down, Ross said.

It is nothing to rejoice in, but rather let's rejoice that the Lord is building His house all by Himself.

It was not meant to be this way, regarding the current church "system". Jesus is more than capable of leading and orchestrating His people. This is actually a good thing for these brethren, because it is only when you come to an end to yourself in utter failure that you hopefully begin to realize that what you are doing is man's way, in man's strength and it is never acceptable to God.

Our house church met today and a really good word came forth from a brother regarding how the Spirit of God is the Conductor in our meetings. There are many things that regular joes like me don't recognize as we watch an Orchestra. For instance, there are several sections at times that do not play. But what they are doing is keeping their eye on the Conductor and counting measures. The brass section knows that in 32 measures they are coming back to play. If the guy/gal that plays the cymbals comes in too soon or is not keeping their eye on the Conductor, then it will absolutely be abysmal. In music, silence and pauses are also music. But everyone must keep their eye on the Conductor(Jesus) to know when to play (speak). Usually the brass section cannot wait until it's their turn to really "belt" on out. But, how is the symphony if the brass section is always playing, or what would a symphony be like if it was constantly cymbals or drums?

What if one musician knew Beethoven backwards and forwards and thought "I know I am suppose to rest here, but I could really fill in this quiet spot or add to the violins and make it real nice?"

Well, even if you do know the scripture backwards and forwards and know all about the early Church fathers, there is a time for you to rest, pause and be quiet, also. Watch the Conductor. No one musician is the Conductor, there is only on Conductor.

I remember, years ago when I was "going to" church, that I had no idea that these types of gatherings were possible. I always thought that man had to organize and lead the meeting. And the better planned and choreographed it was the better the meeting was. Now, I see that so much of it was just flesh. About 99.9%.

We have brothers that are incredible men of God, yet they refuse any titles or position. Not that we want to give anyone a title or position. We are all just brothers. But, the Lord never fails to show up when we all tune ourselves into Him. It is absolutely amazing how the Lord conducts everyone and everything is done decently and in order and we are all growing into a sensitivity to how the Holy Spirit wants to move and what He is saying to us in our meetings. In all meetings we are edified in the Lord and built up in the faith. Eating and fellowshipping afterwards is a bonus. We gather around the Lord and look to Him and yes we have our Bibles (for those wondering) and yes we hear the Word of God and much more as it proceeds our of real people's lives. That is what God is doing and speaking to His people.

God is much too big for one man or two men or 3 men, but usually one big church "boss" as Milton Green would say. He would say, "The guy up on the platform does not have a BIG Jesus and we have a little Jesus." You know, he is so right. In reality we all have a BIG Jesus, but many of us don't know that. We are taught to be dependent on the guy up on the platform. The Lord is too big for one man and what He has to say He chooses to say through all the members of His Body.

It's so nice to be "Just Another Brother", and not trying to take the responsibility for the church on my shoulders. Only ONE was meant to Orchestrate and be the Conductor of the Church.

Because we don't talk about missions programs or evangelization, we have had some people come in and say we need to do this and we need to do that. They usually don't stay around too long. People fail to understand that our lives are lived amongst all kinds of people. But if they don't see any programs in place then they don't think anything is happening.

First, the Lord wants us to know Him and Love Him with all our heart. Out of that, He will use us as He chooses. We don't pre-plan anything or program anything, we just love Him 24x7.

But people want to hear stories and "evidence" of our Christian walk. You know, I could tell you lots of stories and how God has used our brothers and sisters in everyday life, but what is the point? To prove to skeptical people that we are doing works? To prove that simple church is better than programmed church. That is completely fleshly. The Lord is building His Church, not us. We can finally just rest in Him and watch Him do His work like no one else. I was a doer, doer, doer, and it took me awhile to understand what the Lord was really saying to His Church.

I really wish, (many who disdain people that are leaving the system), that they could experience the Lord's presence and leading and care in a gathering of Believers.

We have had people come in with strange beliefs and guess what, we did not apostasize and fall away. And they did not stay around too long. Someone said, "That if we don't have a man leading us, that we may not fall away right away but we will fall away faster than those that do have "leaders".

You know, it's funny. You don't have to tell a child who their mother and father is. Same way in a church where people are all on the same level, just brothers and sisters. We are all organically related, and we spend time with each other, lots of it, just like the NT Church. And you know what, we know who the mature saints are. They don't have to have a name tag on or have a title or position. They already have position in the spirit. We know who the elder brethren are.

I love how everyone respects each one and prefers each one, especially the more mature. And no one has an Agenda with a capital A, or a ministry with a capital M.

Our agenda is Jesus and our ministry is to Him.

Amen!

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

P.S. And He is doing this all over the world.

When you meet someone whose only agenda is Jesus, tis so sweet.

I have to pinch myself sometimes.

 2010/10/11 0:44









 Re:

"In the end, it will be these who inherit the Promises and wear White....and as the children of Israel who survived the dispersion in captivity, and were called a remnant, it is appropiate to name this church the same. The times, they are a changin'....and for the purposes of the Lord, not men."

Amen brother. The notion that "The Remnant," is a heresy is a notion from folks who want to hang onto the status quo.

"I see the remnant as that Bride who has made herself ready by learning how to love God and people, while having learned to walk by faith, in relationship to the Word. They are written in the Lambs book of Life."

In Acts 20 the word " elders," is the same as presbyters and the word " overseers," is the same as the word " bishops." Reading the passage, it is clear the the titles refer to the same men. And of course, there are several " elders,' within the city or town church. What we see today is simply not a Biblical model and every single person who has stood up and spoken out against the established church, whether that establishment was Catholic or Protestant , has paid a price, and the least of that price is to be labelled ' heretic."

Every man who was ever martyred by the church, was labelled a heretic. This is exactly what they labelled Priscillian (385) who was reckoned to be the first man martyred by the " church." Those who come out of the present church system will be labelled the same, for it is the same spirit behind such accusations.

When Evangelical leaders ( Bill Bright and others) began signing agreements not to prozelytize Roman Catholics, this was surely an indication of the rot that had taken hold of Evangelcalism and just one more step towards , what will surely come, a church that will encompass all religions. And that church, will, with a vengence, come after, as it had done in the past, all that oppose it. To stand up and be counted for the name of Jesus will once again carry a great cost.

Brothertom is right, people are leaving the establsihed church in droves, not because of any movement or any call of man, but becuase of an unquenchable desire for authenticity. Nothing short of God Himself will do. No amount of programs or works will fill the void of the presence of God. And so, who are the Remnant? They are whoever is hungry and thirsty for God Himself, they are the " whosever."

Listen to this message by brother Brian Long, an upcoming speaker in Dallas. http://scottishwarriors.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/the-land-is-in-ruins-weep-all-ye-people/

Brian recently , after much heartache and effort, resigned his position from a First Baptist Church. Many of the congregation decided to come out of the church, they are so hungry for God Himself and to give Jesus the preeminence. I listend to some of the testimony of those who came out, they testified with tears. No church hoppers, no angry people, in fact people who had grown up in the church, people who had been there 40 years. These are hungry people. As I listend to their stories, it was the exact same stories that I have heard all over the country, in fact, all over the world.

God promised that if we would draw near to Him, then He would draw near to us. God is stirring in the hearts of His people, revival is coming for those who would seek HIm with their whole hearts, wherever that seeking takes them..........brother Frank

 2010/10/11 0:53









 Re:

Yes, brother Frank, God is stirring the hearts of His people. I am reminded of this verse, also. Saul, also thought that these people were wrong. But, it is hard, so hard to stop something that cannot be stopped.

Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

And then Saul, became Paul. There are a lot of Sauls (proud and mistaken) becoming Pauls (humble and brought to reality) today.

 2010/10/11 1:21









 Re:

Quote:
Amen brother. The notion that "The Remnant," is a heresy is a notion from folks who want to hang onto the status quo.

Well not everyone Brother Frank. I just put it in it's proper historical perspective. The remnant according to the bible were the Jews that believed.

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth "concerning Israel", Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved. And a remnant indeed was saved.

Today, I do not discount that there is a remnant of sorts. That is to say that there is a people that are disgusted with how men have been running things and they want God to be their leader not the Pastor. But I do not see this as a remnant, I see this as the true body of Christ in the earth emerging out of the ashes of man made religion. It's a Church waking up as it were and arising from the dead as it were and Christ is giving us light.

 2010/10/11 11:24









 Re:

Hi Snuf,

Its not just today, its always been that way, its the teaching of the NT. Many are called, few are chosen. Narrow is the path that leads to life and few there are that find it. Jesus tells the parable of the ten virgins. All with lamps, all virgins, but only five with oil and the door was shut to the other five. Also the parable of the sower and the seed, wheat and tares, sheep and goats. Read the piece by Tozer called " The terrible doctrine of the Remnant." Also, a good read is " The Pigrim Church," by E.H. Broadbent. When you read the history of the church, in every century, you will see the Remnant, as opposed to the State church. Re-read Foxes book of Martyrs ( for I am sure that you have read it) and see what the established church did to those who tried to bring the gospel to the people.

If you want to call the Remnant, the Body of Christ, I can see that, it still boils down to the same thing. Its still the who-so-ever, the hungry, the thirsty, the seeker. Its still those who will worship the Lord their God with their whole hearts and whose knee is not bowed to Baal........brother Frank

 2010/10/11 15:47









 Re: Being formed; being transformed. It's happening.

Pilgrim777....[ and Frank also....]....Wow!

It's refreshing to hear the deep calling unto my deep. I long for the body where the least of the brethren are unrecognized because all are so aware of their own exploding need and of the mercies extended to them.

Where the giftings and the shepherds are hidden behind the veil of "BROTHERS FIRST; MINISTERS SECOND", and the little ones are lifted up into Divine esteem as equal members of MY family.

Where the community receives love flowing into and out of her, and the MEETING follows the community; [Thereby displacing the power of the Nicolaitan, The hireling professional, who extracts income and power of the back of the meek...as he dominates the pulpit, and the ever-coming tithe and offerings...who will always flee when the cash and respect disappears...]

Isaiah 40, 3-5...The mountains are levelled....[the high and lofty pride...]..and the valleys are exalted...[the meek, the rejected, the lowly needy..] brought up to Jesus' side in real priesthood and Kingship...

Where the crooks and the crooked are straitened out, by God's revelation of Truth and Love...and THERE....THERE...will be a leveled plain....equal love, equal honor, as Jesus possesses the inheritance that He has purchased as His own. .,....And All of the EARTH shall see it. This church will not be hidden, for when the world sees her, they will see Jesus.

This is the remnant, and we are in the beginning stages of beholding her. She is in Heaven, salted in various venues and stages upon the Earth, but she IS forming. Worth holding out for the very best, I think.

 2010/10/11 19:32





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