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 Re:

Rapture or no rapture... there is no doubt that end time prophecies are being fulfilled at an escalating pace.

Perhaps in our lifetime, unless you die this afternoon.

Krispy

 2010/8/16 13:08
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Lysa...

---> You wrote: "I must ask where you said this to snufalapagus who announced the preterist view as a fact in his FIRST SENTENCE: “The Rapture will not occur at all in our lifetime or any time in the future for it is a past event.” (sorry snuffies!!)

If you’re going to say something to one, you might as well jump on the bandwagon and say something to them all for espousing their view as fact. Just sayin..." <---

The reason that I responded to Phanetheus is because I actually read the post by Phanetheus. I didn't choose to write any sort of response to snufalapagus because I had not read his post. When you log on to SermonIndex, I see newest posts first. I saw Phanetheus's post...and responded to it. There is no ulterior motives of "pick and choose" here.

You wrote: ---> "But I am up for a discussion for another rapture debate because the pre-trib view of the rapture of the church (to me) smacks of an anti-Semitism view as well as I don’t understand how pre-trib people keep all the comings of Jesus straight but that’s just me. (huge grin) I've got some others too!" <---

This is the point behind what I am saying. Should we really debate (again and again and...) in a manner where we hope that people will TAKE A POSITION on an issue where the finality of it is not even exceedingly clear from Scripture? There are plenty of sincere believers who hold varying positions about this matter. Some are pre-trib. Some are mid-trib. Some are post-trib. I am sure that there are other positions too. More importantly and less highly regarded is the NO position. There are some of us who think that all of these are possible scenarios for how the end will come about. I do not think that it is necessary that we know as a fact (and declare as much) EXACTLY how we think that the end will come.

As I have said previously, I don't have an ultimate and final position on this. I continue to lean toward a view that the Lord will gather His Bride BEFORE He pours out His wrath upon the entire world. I have several reasons for this that I have covered previously in several of the other "how the end will come" type of threads. However, I would hardly call it "anti-Semitic" to believe that the Lord will gather His Bride before His wrath is poured out upon the whole earth -- especially since my grandmother is Jewish. I guess that I don't see the "anti-Semitism" link there.

Again, I entered the conversation only because I saw an inaccuracy in something that Phanetheus proclaimed. The idea of a "gathering away" of the Bride of Christ before the day of God's wrath was written around 1500 years BEFORE the claims of certain "post-trib" folks. I think that these claims are "horizontal" in nature -- largely based upon one another. The claim is that there "is no ancient writing about a 'rapture' (or, as I prefer, a "gathering") before the tribulation" (or, as I prefer, the "period of God's Wrath"). This conveys a message that the person making the claim has actually performed firsthand research through most of the early Christian writings -- and not just relying upon the claims of others.

I think that, if we are going to proclaim such a thing as a fact, that we would have at least validated the claims for ourselves. There just isn't an extensive collection of Christian writing from the first few centuries of the Church. Even in what is found, there was already some variance of doctrinal opinion on certain issues (which was already demonstrated in the book of Acts). Thus, of course, we can only rely upon what is found in the Word of God.

There is plenty of variance of opinion on this matter. I just have to wonder whether or not we should finalize an opinion about something so "vague" in the Word of God. It is just that some of us who have read and prayerfully studied this issue still acknowledge the various possibilities regarding how the end will come. I don't think that it is wrong to avoid taking a final position on a subject of which is not exceedingly clear from God's Word.

So, I feel that the underlying message in the Word of God regarding the End is simply to be PREPARED because we do not know the timing of the Lord's return. The only REAL preparation is to spend time with our Lord via prayer and study of His Word. This will help regardless of whether the Lord gathers His Bridge BEFORE the time of God's Wrath or afterward. After all, like Krispy said, we aren't even assured to live to (or through) any such point! We could die today...but for believers...that is GAIN!

Like I said, I only responded to Phanetheus because I didn't read most of the other posts (including the one that you mentioned). I simply saw an inaccuracy with a statement within our brother Phanetheus's post. I hope this clarifies my point in responding to his post alone.

Asking, seeking, knocking...
-Chris


_________________
Christopher

 2010/8/16 13:50Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Charles Ryrie, the leading voice of dispensational theology today, from Dallas Theological Seminary teaches that there is no explicit reference to the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture taught anywhere in Scripture. A lot of the commonly used proof-texts, he teaches, cannot be exegeted to reveal the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture. Yet in spite of this, Ryrie teaches that the pre-tribulational rapture is true. Why? Because he believes in the idea that there are two peoples of God that the Lord is dealing with in redemptive history. One being Israel, the other being the Church. Because of this, the dispensational theology absolutely demands a pre-tribulational rapture. With the result that texts that actually just teach the second coming of Christ are used to teach a pre-tribulational rapture. Apart from this two people of God theory, Ryrie conceedes that there is no explicit passage in the Bible that teaches a pre-tribulational rapture. Rather, it's simply "infered" because of the two people of God theory that dispensationalism teaches.

So for those of you who believe in a pre-tribulational rapture, the crux of the matter is: Do you believe in two peoples of God? Or do you believe in one?

If you believe in two, then you will agree with Ryrie. But if you only believe there are one people of God, then there is simply no theological reason or Scriptural reason as to why you should believe in a pre-tribulational rapture. It's simply not there.

I for one, believe in only one people of God.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/8/16 14:04Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi KingJimmy...

I suppose that I was "blessed" enough to have come to Christ without any sort of opinion on the matter and with various teachers who taught various different positions on the matter. As a result, I never placed much final authority in the words of most Bible teachers regarding such matters as being anything other than men with opinions.

I disagree with Ryrie's "either/or" argument here as you presented. It is possible to lean toward a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the period of God's wrath based upon things other than what Ryrie has discussed (like his discussion about whether there is one or two "peoples" of God). I lean toward such a gathering simply because I "see" it in Scripture...and not by dissecting or deliberating upon any further sort of doctrinal positions.

I think that I have known people on each side of the dichotomy that you mentioned whose views did not necessarily line up accordingly.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/8/16 14:16Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

No doubt, his dichotomy can be a false one. But, I think as a general rule of thumb he is right in his assessment. From a historical look at theology, he is definitely correct. Historically, pre-tribulational theology traces its origins to the two people of God theory in the dispensational framework. Of course, people are often theological hybrids, and can have a mish-mash of theologies.

I like to personally refer to the pre-tribulational rapture idea as theological leftovers. Many people today believe it apart from the dispensational system. But they do so without any definite theological reason as to why and understanding it in God's overall purposes and plans. It's usually trumped as an avoidance of future suffering card at best.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/8/16 15:12Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 1073
Germany NRW

 Re: Rapture


May be we should ask ourselves how we can win souls to join us in our pre or post trib rapture - hastening His return.

 2010/8/16 17:17Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3400
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: ccchhhrrriiisss



You must have the threads as “threaded,” I keep mine "flat" or I don't know who posted what when! And snuffie, I was not picking on you but trying to make a point with chris.

Ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
--------------------------
This is the point behind what I am saying. Should we really debate (again and again and...)
--------------------------

I really didn’t want to debate with you so let me give you some food for thought.

Phanetheus was not being argumentative.
Phanetheus had some very good points that no one has attempted to discuss.

ccchhhrrriiisss, I respect you as a brother in Christ even though you lean heavily towards the pretribulational rapture of the church theory; but none of us are “THE” guardians for the end-time theory that we espouse to.

I feel that we who disagree with the pre-tribulational rapture theory are.... (I think borderline harassed would be a good word), because we are not allowed to voice our opinion on sermonindex freely without someone telling us we are inaccurate.

Cccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
-----------------------------
It is not for us to know the times and the seasons.

Why can't people just accept this?
-----------------------------

Why can’t people who believe the pre-trib theory accept this as well....AS THOROUGHLY as you want us to accept this?

I’ve said my piece; I didn’t want to offend you and am sorry if I stepped beyond my boundaries.

God bless you,
Lisa


_________________
Lisa

 2010/8/16 17:59Profile









 Re:

Cccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
-----------------------------
It is not for us to know the times and the seasons.

Why can't people just accept this?
-----------------------------

Why can’t people who believe the pre-trib theory accept this as well....AS THOROUGHLY as you want us to accept this?

I’ve said my piece; I didn’t want to offend you and am sorry if I stepped beyond my boundaries.

God bless you,
Lisa



Ahhh, Lysa???

that was this sheeple, me, that wrote that, though the point you made is well taken... even here.


Shalom,
g

 2010/8/16 18:15









 Re:

Regarding end-time events,
I'VE GOT IT ALL FIGURED OUT.

i've figured out that whatever anybody says, myself included, is speculation.

The first post from me was towards the purpose of showing that all things are not as we think if we are to look at all the relative scriptures within context of one another...
even though the complete history wasn't studied and so i made a few wrong statements about that issue.

God Bless,
g
edited: incomplete sentence.

 2010/8/16 18:22
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Lysa...

You wrote: ---> "You must have the threads as “threaded,” I keep mine "flat" or I don't know who posted what when! And snuffie, I was not picking on you but trying to make a point with chris." <---

Actually, my settings are always on "flat." It is just that I see the newest posts first when I am logged in. I can't recollect as having changed this ever, so I assumed that it was a default setting via the forum template that Greg uses.

In addition, it seems to have become difficult finding and sorting through our own posts since much of the HTML coding (including the quote feature and the ability to look on our own profile to view our last four or five posts) has been disabled. That might be a cause for some of the confusion during some discussions. Greg has mentioned that he is working on at least getting the quote coding back to the forums.

You wrote: ---> "ccchhhrrriiisss, I respect you as a brother in Christ even though you lean heavily towards the pretribulational rapture of the church theory; but none of us are “THE” guardians for the end-time theory that we espouse to.

I feel that we who disagree with the pre-tribulational rapture theory are.... (I think borderline harassed would be a good word), because we are not allowed to voice our opinion on sermonindex freely without someone telling us we are inaccurate." <---

I don't think that you should feel any more "harassed" than anyone with whom you disagree with. HOWEVER, I do think that we all need to be exceedingly clear that our views are expressed for what they are -- our own VIEWS.

I think that people are well within their rights as believers to share what they believe as long as they season their words with grace and the realization that we all are peering about many such matters "through a glass darkly." I wouldn't want a person to boldly proclaim a "pre-trib rapture" as "absolute truth" any more than I would want someone else to do the same with a "post-trib" (or any other) view.

You wrote: ---> "Ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
--------------------------
It is not for us to know the times and the seasons.

Why can't people just accept this?
--------------------------

Why can’t people who believe the pre-trib theory accept this as well....AS THOROUGHLY as you want us to accept this?

I’ve said my piece; I didn’t want to offend you and am sorry if I stepped beyond my boundaries. <---

Actually, I didn't write the above quote. It is incorrectly attributed to me, but I think that Phanetheus was the one who actually wrote that statement. (*EDIT - Yes, Phanetheus explained that this was his quote in a later post). Again, this confusion and misquote might be attributed to the loss of the "quote" coding

Regardless, please don't worry too much. There isn't any offense in my mind or heart. I understand that many people have many opinions about many issues pertaining to Scripture. I do think that many heated debates (not that this is one) could be avoided by believers who afford others the patient grace of searching through such matters without making proclamations about what is truth in issues that aren't exceedingly clear from Scripture.

How will the end come? The Lord may very well come to gather His Bride before His wrath is poured out upon the whole earth. Then again, believers may be confined to remain on this earth WHILE the Lord pours His wrath upon the whole earth. The underlying principle is always the same: We must be prepared. We must be prepared to suffer all sorts of persecution and tribulation...to test everything by the Word of God...to tell the world the good news about Jesus Christ...and remain in intimate communion with God.

I don't think that there is any better preparation than this.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/8/16 19:21Profile





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