SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A New Covenant

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 Next Page )
PosterThread
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

We have lots of different uses of Israel in the bible, such as (this is not all the uses):
The Children of Israel
The sons of Israel
The stone of Israel
The land of Israel
The house of Israel
The people of Israel
Israel after the flesh
The Israel of God

Perhaps we could start by examining each of these phrases in turn and also see which people it is describing and how a person is part of the group being described?
I know this may take some time but I think it may be worthwhile.

So to start we have "children of Israel" which is probably the most common usage.
Does anyone care to analyse?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/25 5:43Profile









 Re: A New Covenant


Hi Nasher,

I'd like to take 'children of Israel'.

I believe the term 'Israel', [God prevails] mainly speaks of the spiritual man, the 'new name' (in the white stone?) which God gives to a person who has understood the frailties of their natural man. Jacob, by the end of his life 'worshipped'.

Hebrews 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, [leaning] on the top of his staff';

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days. 2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father'.


Then Jacob died. And Joseph fell upon his father's face, and wept upon him, and kissed him. 2 And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians to embalm his father: and the physicians embalmed Israel.

Note: they 'embalmed Israel'.

Genesis 50:24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence. 26 So Joseph died, [being] an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.


'The children of Israel' make it through the years in Egypt, the plagues, the Passover, the wilderness (receiving the Law, the priesthood and the separation of Levi instead of the firstborn of every family), to the land of promise from whence the eleven 'children of Israel' originally had come, for four generations, until David has reclaimed all the original borders.

Then in his son Solomon's time, the tribes are divided into Judah and Benjamin, and the other ten who turn to idolatry under their king in Samaria, and eventually become Samaritans, and mixed with invading peoples.

I'm not clear at what point or how, Ephraim remains connected to Judah and Benjamin, but the latter two share Jerusalem. The term 'Jew' is linked to the name 'Judah'.

An important prequel to Jacob being Israel, is that the promises God made to Abraham are passed from Isaac (Abraham's promised son) to Jacob through his elder brother Esau's disdain for his formal birthright his blessing. Thus, all the promises to Abraham (that through him all nations of the earth would be blessed), we handed (in spirit) to Jacob's children to deliver.

See Romans 4 (whole chapter) and Galatians 3:

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



Is this any help? (Any corrections needed, please tell me!)

 2010/10/25 18:40
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

A good start, Nasher

Perhaps in looking at the children of Israel or Jacob, it would be worth while mentioning Jacob's grandfather Abraham and his father Isaac, just as a point of comparison.

Abraham had one son according to promise - Isaac and one according to the flesh Ishmael (see Gal 4), and afterwards many more children. But God said to him "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest,". God was chosing, selecting the beloved son in order through him to bring forth the seed, which is Christ (see Gal 3)

Isaac was 40 years old when he married Rebecca, but she was barren and Isaac entreared the Lord for her and she conceived. Twins were born - Esau and Jacob, and God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Again God was chosing and calling Jacob, although what a mess he was in -but God loved him, and brought him to h(H)imself

But when we come to Jacob's (Israel's) children, God has no favorites, although, He knew that the seed (which is Christ) would be through Judah. So at the beginning, God's intention was that the children of Israel should all become a great multitude, and a great nation. Jacob testified to Joseph in Egypt:

"God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me, And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession." Gen 48:3-4

So Israel and his children were promised fruitfulness and abundance, and his seed (which is Christ) was promised the land for an everlasting posession - please note, all unconditional promises and before the giving of the law.

David

PS can I just say that it is such a blessing to recount the mighty works of the Lord in this way, (Like Stephen did) . thanks Nasher


_________________
david

 2010/10/25 18:55Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Hi Snufalagapus Can I ask if you believe that the Christ will come again in the future? If so, for what purpose? David

No I do not.

I believe the Lord when He said, "Behold I come Quickly". How He came I do not know, but He did come at some point in that first century. The time statements are very important and when the Angel told John not to seal up the vision for the very things that are written therein were coming to pass as he was being shown them. Today we are living in the kingdom of God, or the Kingdom age. As far as I understand the scriptures from the angle that I view scriptures as all being fulfilled, there is no such a thing as any last day.

 2010/10/25 19:52
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
No I do not.



Snuf, I would like to exhort you to re-examine that stand.

I often find your posts have good insights... but in this, may I say you are missing something very major.

"...Looking for that blessed Hope, and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savious Jesus Christ..." (Titus 2.13).

There are so many Scriptures that could be quoted...

Yes, we are living in the kingdom age, and the wheat and the tares are growiong together. But the fulness of that Kingdom-- which the apostles saw in prophetic vision on the Mount of Transfiguration, and which they called "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pt. 1.16)-- has not yet arrived.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/10/25 21:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Snuf, I would like to exhort you to re-examine that stand.

My dear precious brother, this came by revelation and it is of no private interpretation unlike the 'tribulation' teachings are. I am the Lord's and I am open to His corrections, I've been through the mill so to speak so it's not worth holding unto something that is not worth holding unto. I do regret answering the question.

But I wish to say no more as I prefer peace in the forums and I would prefer that this discussion return to the original thought.

Fraternally

Snuf

 2010/10/25 22:15
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

Today we are living in the kingdom of God, or the Kingdom age. As far as I understand the scriptures from the angle that I view scriptures as all being fulfilled, there is no such a thing as any last day."""

What days are these?

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The Kingdom age cannot come until the Kingdom is established on this earth in the millennum-1000 YEARS OF THE REIGN OF CHRIST ON THIS EARTH ON DAVIDS THRONE.

Our kingdom is heavenly and we are already seated with Christ in His heavenly place. The Kingdom Age is especially for those name it and claim it Kenneth Copland, Pentecostal types.

The Last day the body of Christ will be taken up in the clouds with Him and so will we ever be with the Lord.

The Last day, the great white throne judgement.

If we study the "Last Day" we see more than one. We must rightly divide the Word of God.

In Christ, a son of God already in His Heavenly Kingdom, not earthly:

Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/10/26 2:38Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So Israel and his children were promised fruitfulness and abundance, and his seed (which is Christ) was promised the land for an everlasting posession - please note, all unconditional promises and before the giving of the law.


Hi David,

A little later on in Leviticus 26 there is an "if / then" statement about the covenant with Jacob / Isaac / Abraham and also about the land:

40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

What do you think?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/26 3:45Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Hi Nasher

I think that God never ceases to be gracious. He says that even in a land of captivity, If they will confess their iniquities, He will remember His covenant with their ancestors.
Just confession; we think, how simple. But we forget that without Christ, the heart is desperately wicked and deceitful. and it was their hearts that He was speaking to, which had turned away from God to idols.

Even with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, God was trying their hearts to bring forth faith, and they three failed in many ways, Yet God was faithful and long suffering as He wanted to bring forth a seed. This seed (Christ) would inherit the land as God had unconditionally promised.

He gave them the law at Horeb and called them His nation, but they rebelled in heart and turned again to idols. But God through Moses intercession bore with them with patience and long suffering and started to talk about a remnant of them inheriting. And the seed would come through this remnant. The remnant of the children of Israel can be traced and identified throughout the old testament and in the gospels as they waited for the consolation of Israel.

And in the fullness of time Christ, the seed of the woman came. He came firstly to the remnant of Israel who believed on Him. He led them to the cross and there the Son of God himself made atonement for their sins (and much more, though they did not know it). He rose from death, gathered them together again and spoke peace to them. They watched Him ascend to His Father and waited together in prayer till the day came that everything changed. God never ceases to be gracious. Amen and Amen

David


_________________
david

 2010/10/26 18:46Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Dear precious brothers and sisters

As I read all your contributions to this thread, it is clear that we have differing views concerning the last days and the coming of Christ. This may be due to the way we have come to know Christ, the churches we have been to, or the way the Spirit of God has led us in our walk with Him. Some like myself would take what is called by some a dispensational approach, others would take a covenant approach. When it comes to scripture, a lot depends on the way we interpret passage like Romans 11, Matthew 24, Daniel 9 or the book of Revelation. We all seem to believe strongly that our interpretation is the Spirit taught one, and I do believe that we are all waiting on God to be taught by Him.

When it comes to our salvation in Christ, new birth and baptism in the Spirit, this thread and ohers show that we are all generally agreed. So we are brethren in Christ, His church, one body in His eyes.

But in things about the last days we differ. What should we understand from this? Should we just say that we will not know these things until they happen, so we should not discuss them or even read what the bible says about them? I think not.

Is it possible for us to ever come to agreement about these things, or has God deliberately written His word in this way - perhaps to confound the understanding of the wise? I constantly look to God for the answer to these questions.

Can you help

David

PS Snufalagapus also says that what he believes comes from revelation of the Holy Spirit, and we should respect him in these things, as with all of us, as long as our salvation in Christ is secure.


_________________
david

 2010/10/26 19:36Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy