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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I think that, to be honest, what provoked me to write what I wrote was reading my brother's and sisters writing as if this new covenant is all that we have in Christ and basing their doctrines and theology completely around this one thing.


Hi David, I'm not sure I understand your point here, what else are you saying that our doctrines and theology should be built upon if not the New Covenant?

Quote:
But the church, I believe is a new thing, a new creation sprung out of the death and resurection of Christ. Yes, our inclusion as gentiles was due to the rejection of Him by Israel


I don't believe the bible teaches that the gentiles were included into the Church because Israel (in the most part) rejected Jesus, if we read John 17:

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

If the love with which the Father loved Jesus was before the foundation of the world and this love is now in us then God loved us before the foundation of the world also. Therefore I don't believe the gentiles were an afterthought in God's mind as he loved us (the Church) before the foundation of the world.
A careful reading of Romans 11 will uphold this.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/21 3:12Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: my dear Nasher

Quote:
it is very early on the Lord's day, and before i could do anything after my early morning devotional readings, the Lord revealed to me and in me, that it is right, just and loving, that i ask for your forgiveness


Hi Neil,

I forgive you brother. I'm glad you have Zeal though, it is in short supply these days, it just needs to be in line with God's will, something like zeal in love.


Quote:
God has not forgotten the Jew


I don't believe God has forgotten or rejected anyone ;-)


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/21 3:17Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: What / Who is Israel?

I guess before we can really start talking about Israel, we must first establish what / who Israel is.
Also what a Jew and a Hebrew also (if they are any different)
I'll start to do some word studies on them so in the meantime feel free to comment if you already know the answers!


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/21 3:20Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Hi Nasher. You wrote:
"what else are you saying that our doctrines and theology should be built upon if not the New Covenant?"

Well what about on Jesus Christ. " On this rock, I will build my church"

Also you say:
"I don't believe the bible teaches that the gentiles were included into the Church because Israel (in the most part) rejected Jesus...............A careful reading of Romans 11 will uphold this."

You quoted from Jesus' prayer in John 17, and I agree and the scriptures and the Spirit bears witness that He loved us before the foundation of the earth and chose us in Christ. I was not meaning to imply that we Gentiles were an after thought. He knew when He sent His son into the world that He would suffer death through the council of the Jews. His death on the cross is the stumbling block to the Jews which prevents them form entering into His kingdom, (except there is now a believing remnant according to the election of grace) But Israel as a nation has been blinded in part and God has given them a spirit of slumber even at this time.

Coming to Romans 11, as you suggested; Paul asks in verse 11:
'I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, "
And in verse 12, about Israels fall: "the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles"
And verse 15: the casting away of them (Israel) be the reconciling of the world"
And speaking of the Gentiles as the wild olive tree in verse 17: "And if some of the branches ( ie of Israel, the natural olive tree) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree"
And verses 19 and 20: "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"


By the way, all the best in your word studies on Israel, but The bible shows this to be a mystery (verse 25) which the Holy Spirit reveals.

"How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen" Romans 11:33-36 (KJV)

David


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david

 2010/10/21 18:12Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Nasher. You wrote:
"what else are you saying that our doctrines and theology should be built upon if not the New Covenant?"

Well what about on Jesus Christ. " On this rock, I will build my church"


The Church is built upon Jesus Christ, yes. What about our doctrines and theology though?


With regards to Romans 11, are you saying (or saying the bible says) that if God's people which he foreknew did not stumble then the Gentiles would never have come to salvation?


Quote:
By the way, all the best in your word studies on Israel, but The bible shows this to be a mystery (verse 25) which the Holy Spirit reveals.


Actually the bible says we shouldn't be ignorant of this mystery - the mystery being that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
God has given us the bible and the Holy Spirit to understand all that is necessary, there is nothing else we need to know that is hidden or is still a mystery.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/22 9:16Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Hi Nasher

"The Church is built upon Jesus Christ, yes. What about our doctrines and theology though?"

They too must come from a revelation of Jesus Christ. Personally I have found that new covenant theology has blinkers on. It expounds scripture according to its own narrow doctrines amd is blind to many parts of the bible. It looks at scriptures like the prophets and the psalms, much of the new testament especially the gospels and revelation and asks "How can I fit these passage into a new covenant interpretation? Thus the doctrine takes precedence over the scriptures themselves. This is the blind leading the blind.
I have read through all of this new covenant thread and find it to be narrow and hiding the full revelation of Jesus Christ and who He is.
I am not criticising any person, as I love all Gods saints, but there is much more revealed in scripture than is set forth through this doctrine.
If you read a few of my posts, you will know where I stand as regards doctrine. It should be the full revelation of Jesus himself as shown in the scriptures.


"With regards to Romans 11, are you saying (or saying the bible says) that if God's people which he foreknew did not stumble then the Gentiles would never have come to salvation?"

How can anyone answer a "what if" question? But God knew that they would stumble at the cross, as he knows all men, and knows what is in men. But the bible is gods word, and when the fullness of the gentiles is come in, then all Israel will be saved.

Love
David


_________________
david

 2010/10/22 20:10Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I have read through all of this new covenant thread and find it to be narrow and hiding the full revelation of Jesus Christ and who He is.


Please enlighten us to where it has been narrow and where it has hidden the full revelation. Then you could perhaps reveal it for us?

Quote:
How can anyone answer a "what if" question?


How do you interpret the passage then?

Quote:
But the bible is gods word, and when the fullness of the gentiles is come in, then all Israel will be saved.


Then? I can't find a single translation that says "then all Israel will be saved", I see two ways of it being translated - "and so all Israel will be saved" (KJV, NIV, AMP, NASB, NLT, Darby, ASV, WYC) and "and in this way all Israel will be saved" (ESV, CEV, TNIV, NCV, HCSB)
Why do you think it should be translated as "then"?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2010/10/23 5:01Profile









 Re: A New Covenant


Hi Nasher and davidc,

I understand the 'then' as to mean that by the time (a time in the future) when all the Jews who are going to be saved have been saved AND all the the Gentiles who will have been saved are saved, 'Israel' will be complete.

I say 'complete' because that also has to do with fulness.

That is how it reads to me in the Spirit. It is not about some future great inpouring of Jews to the Church (which is founded on the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone), which will somehow mystically include 'all' Jews who have ever lived (as some people seem to believe).

Thus 'so' and 'in this way' can mean 'then', although this may not match the Greek.

Paul makes clear in his olive tree analogy, that at any time an unbelieving Jew may believe, and by that means is grafted into Christ, the olive tree.

 2010/10/23 5:50
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Alive to God, you say
Thus 'so' and 'in this way' can mean 'then', although this may not match the Greek.

I apologise to you and Nasher as I agree that the Geeek word does mean "in this way", rather than "then" - as refering to a time line.

The phrase "in this way" refers to the way Paul has just expounded in chapter 11. The chapter is Pauls answer to "has God cast away His people?"

Unfortunately you and I disagree fundamentally on the interpretation of this way in this chapter. I agree with Alive to God that it is not speakng about "some future great inpouring of Jews to the Church".
The chapter in fact does not speak at all of the church as Paul does in Ephesians and Collossians as being one body with no Greek or Jew. The chapter is rather concerned with the mercy of God to 3 classes of people. Believing gentiles, believing Jews, and Israel.
The first two have salvation now through faith in Christ and compose the church. Israel, now is hardened, but those of Israel who are alive at Christ's second coming, will be saved by believing in Him.I have shown below the references in the chapter to these three groups and ask for your patience in reading them.

a) The Gentiles: through the fall of Israel, salvation has come to the Gentiles v11 Israels diminishing has become the Gentiles riches v12 Paul has been made by God the apostle to the Gentiles v13 likened to an olive tree which is wild by nature v17 &22. but graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; v17. Warned not to boast against the natural branches v18 Gentiles stand by faith, not by any natural inheritance.v20 Gentiles told to continue in Gods goodness, otherwise will be cut off v22 There will be a time when the fullness of the Gentiles will come in v25. We have obtained mercy from God through Israel's unbelief. v30.

b)The remnant of Jews. Elect of God through grace not through works vs 5&6. They have obtained what they were seeking for v7. Paul is one of them v1; and seeks to save some of them v14. God through history BC has always had this believing remnant of Jews, as in the time of Elijah v 2,3&4. And also "at this present time" v5.

c) Israel: hath not obtained that which he seeketh for. v7. Distinguished from the saved elect who had obtained it, and called "the rest" but the rest were blinded v7 Their inner blinding, hardening and stumbling descibed in detail v8 to 10 as a deliberate act of God. They have not stumbled that they might fall, but rather to open a way for the Gentiles v11. They also are to have a fullness v12 They are to have a receiving which will be "life from the dead" v15. They are described as branches broken off from their holy root v16&17, because of unbelief v20.
God is able to graff them in again v23. They are the natural branches v24 . Paul addressing the brethren says they should not be ignorant of this mystery, that it is a blindness in part that has happened to them v25. This partial blindness will continue until all the gentiles have come in v25. And in this way, all Israel will be saved.v26. The when and how is now revealed. When there shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and how? He "shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" v26. He will also perform his (new) covenant with them, taking away their sins v27 Concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes (gentiles) v28. But as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes v28

When the difference is seen between the believing Jews (christians) and "the rest" (part blinded Israel), the chapter opens itself up to a clear understanding of the riches of the council of God.


David


_________________
david

 2010/10/23 19:25Profile









 Re:

We are in danger of appearing foolish, and we can't read the English properly. Whether it's in the Greek or Aramaic, it's still foolish to put that verse off into some unknown future when in fact it has been fulfilled.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Since this thread is about the New Covenant, verse 27 is that New Covenant which Christ took away their sins. We can't just lift verse 26 to mean some futuristic event when Paul was speaking of the present because the Deliverer had turned away ungodliness from Jacob. Jesus is that Deliverer and He had made a New Covenant with them to the "ALL" of the Remnant that would be saved in that day. If we continue to put this off into the future, we are only trying to uphold something that doesn't hold water. ALL the scriptures must agree with the one and the one must agree with the whole. If the one does not agree with the whole then it's not agreeable.

In trying to throw this into the future, we are first not reading the passage right, secondly, we negate that the Deliverer even came to save the Jews and Gentiles from their sins and we simply can't comprehend the thousands of Jews that were being saved in that first century. The "ALL" that were being saved were being saved, "such as should be saved". And thirdly, we have no respect for the writer that wrote it for they were seeing the fulfillment before their very eyes and told about it and we do not believe them.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Again, this is apart of that whole that agrees with the part, that not "ALL" in verse 26 means "ALL". Because there are those that simply will not believe.

 2010/10/23 23:08





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