SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A New Covenant

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 Next Page )
PosterThread
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

Hi Davidc,

You wrote:

Quote:
To me the church, the body of Christ is one body with one Spirit, a heavenly people, a purchased possesion, A people for Christ's own glory, His bride to be. As such, the church has nothing to do with covenants, new or old.


I find that strange. How can you believe that the 'church' has nothing to do with the new covenant? What covenant are you part of? Are you really saying that you think the New Covenant is only for Israel and not to ALL nations?

Now I will say that I lean heavily towards the pre-millennial interpretation of scripture and what you have outlined is pure standard teaching from this view (apart from the 'no covenant view'!).

However I am more interested in thinking intelligently about things, rather than just accepting what is taught by any one position. This is what I think Nasher is saying. It is good to question what we believe.

Davidc also said
Quote:
Personally, I believe that the bible does not teach this, but rather, that we are partakers of the inheritance with Israel. The bible speaks of a future time when Christ will set up His kingdom and reign on the earth. Israel will then be saved, have the Holy Spirit pouted out, and have a relationship with God under the new covenant. They will have a new heart and a new spirit and God by His Spirit will dwell in them. Jesus Himself in His glorious resurrection life will be with them, and will be their king and priest.



You say that the above is the New Covenant fulfillment with Israel, but pre-millennial teaching also says that all the millennial references to the temple and sacrifices will also be observed during this time, so a continuence of the Old Covenant. I have always found this hard to understand. I know the standard Pre-Mil answer is that it is a looking back to the sacrifice of Christ, but this does not line up with what Hebrews tells us about the old sacrificial system being 'done away with'.


Just some things to consider and let's try and not divide ourselves into theological camps, but take an honest look at scripture.


_________________
Dave

 2010/10/14 5:44Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Where is the temple for each believer in the Body of Christ?

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

How can the Holy Spirit now dwell in a lost sinner, that is light with darkness?

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

"It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

Now we have been made by the Christ birthed in us; 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The temple is now the Lords, It is Jesus Christ who lives in and makes this temple Holy, nothing I do or did or will do will separate me from the Christ and His Love that is in us.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Oh, like as Paul, Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

May we know that our old man is killed all the day long, that we like sheep are accounted as slaughtered. I die daily, that the life of Christ might live through me on this earth as He says: "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me", now this temple can be the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, for, we are Holy because He is Holy.

This is the Body of Christ His Church and not the Isreal of God on this earth in the millennium, with all the covenants that are still in place to become present as Christ on the Throne of David Makes Israel who God promised them they would be.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/10/14 14:40Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

I am not a dispensationalist, neither Hyper, upper or lower. I do see Adam innocent in the garden and choosing our old Father Satan in whom we believe we will serve. The final dispensation that is to fulfill the Word of God, He Himself providing His own Son that we might become the sons of God and not the sons of Satan.

Colossians 1:24-29 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

These are Gods Words through Paul, by the revelation of the Christ in Paul, Personally by the Son and the Holy Spirit.

If this makes me a dispensationalist, then so be it.

In Christ, the fulfillment of the Word of God: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/10/14 14:55Profile
davidc
Member



Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

HeyDave said
"I find that strange. How can you believe that the 'church' has nothing to do with the new covenant? What covenant are you part of? Are you really saying that you think the New Covenant is only for Israel and not to ALL nations?"

I think that I was rash and in error to say that the church has nothing to do with the new covenant. It was very late at night and I was tired and probably wanting to provoke, having been provoked. It's been on my conscience all day , and I am now sorry to have written it.

Of course the basis of the redemption of the church (and myself) is the Christ's precious blood of the new covenant, and Christ Himself now is the mediator of the new covenant, mediating the heavenly things of the covenant now to us: his law in our hearts and minds and remission of sins (Heb10 v16&17) and the promise of eternal inheritance (Heb9 v 15).

I think that, to be honest, what provoked me to write what I wrote was reading my brother's and sisters writing as if this new covenant is all that we have in Christ and basing their doctrines and theology completely around this one thing.
But the church, I believe is a new thing, a new creation sprung out of the death and resurection of Christ. Yes, our inclusion as gentiles was due to the rejection of Him by Israel, but essentially, we are a heavenly people, the vast majority of us sleep in Christ till His coming. We that are left have new hearts, a new spirit (small s), The precious Holy Spirit and his laws in our hearts. But we shall be changed and will be like Him. And so we wait for just one thing; His coming

David


_________________
david

 2010/10/14 17:12Profile









 my dear Nasher

it is very early on the Lord's day, and before i could do anything after my early morning devotional readings, the Lord revealed to me and in me, that it is right, just and loving, that i ask for your forgiveness, beg in fact for your forgiveness, for my hasty, unwise, and unloving words to you in my posts prior. As well as asking forgiveness of anyone who read them and was offended, please forgive me.

These posts were born out of a Godly grief, a torment, a lamentation for the people of my flesh, the Jews. That is NO excuse, for one who says, 'please forgive me, but i did as such because.........'...really makes no humble confession at all, but makes a 'back door" way to butress their "opinion". God forbid i do that. Hence, i ask your forgiveness for previous posts.

the reason i mentioned 'early morning devotional readings' is not to boast in the flesh, but to boast in the Lord in that He blessed me with a Revelation of Himself, which is that i shall meet or hear from no man, before i hear from God in His Word, and His Voice via prayer. i bless and thank God that He put this need and hunger in my heart and soul, for as you well know, His Word is a Pure Thing, the Light Everlasting that illuminates our way...together.

(i would have written this sooner, but the thorn in my flesh, put me in the hospital for a few days, being released last night, Praise His Mercy!)

so this morning, having re-started in Genesis several weeks ago, i found myself, this morning in Leviticus 17. Leviticus 17:1 to Leviticus 26:46 is known as the "Holiness Code", and as i was eating of the Word, you came into my heart, meaning this "Old Covenant/New Covenant" tension that has betwisted the Church.

and the Lord God gave me a revelation. (i'm having a problem with my "d" key,it doesnt work, but a visit today to the computer store will solve that.)

now i pray that i am able to aptly communicate this revelation with my human words; there have many Covevenants, the Noahide, the Abrahamic, the Sinatic, up to the "Better", or New Covenant Which is Jesus and Him Crucified, Ressurected, withe the Provision of the Blood that is suitable to cleanse ALL sin.

and as i walked further into Leviticus 17, i began to see the Godly commands that the apostles gave the Churches in the "Jerusalem Edict(Council)' in Acts 15, to guide Gentile followers, when they were harrassed by those who wanted them to be impeded on the full Realization of Jesus Messiah. The Jerusalem Council's requirements, as led by the Holy Spirit was very simple, 'abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality'.

the divine roots of this are all in the "Holiness Code", including the Second royal commandment of Jesus, which is

"Love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev 19:18b)

the first Royal commandment being a recitation of the Sch'ma, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might". (deut 6:4-5...cant capitalize the "d", sorry)

an then the Spirit spoke into my heart, and said, 'you see this Covenant and that Covenant, as if they are different roads thaT end, much like highway 57 ends here, an highway 14 ends there, but My Covevanants are a continuum, a long long Road, that has One Final destination, Mount Zion ,the Heavenly Jerusalem, God, Judge of all, angels in festal gathering, the assembly of the first born, the spirits of the righteous made and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled Blood than speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (Hebrews 11:22-24)

Covenant leads to Covenant leads to Final Covenant, the New Covenant, which is the Final destination, opened by the Blood of Jesus, much the same way, a highway is built section, by section by section, and the sadness, the terrible grief i feel is that many of the people of my flesh, are using incomplete 'roadmaps', dissauded in picking up a "new roadmap", by either hardness of heart, or focusing on the terror of history, and by God's design, so that the full measure of Gentiles may be brought in to be Children of Abraham, then by the Mercy of God, they shall be given the 'full roadmap' leading to Messiah in the blink of an eye.

God has not forgotten the Jew, He said He wouldnt, and i believe God. The earth is God's, the nations are God's, therefore i do not believe for one second that the creation of the modern state of Israel, is born of man's will, it is born of God's plan and Sovereignty.

So, dear Nasher, that is the post i SHOULd have made previous to you, instead of my harsh unwholesome post, which i pray you forgive me for.

many may disagree with me, but at 3:30 in the morning, it was God the Holy Ghost gave me such a revelation, an the thought that countless Gentiles have been ingrafted into the Vine, gives me no end of JOY!!! I PRAISE JESUS' NaME FOR THAT!!!!

This Most Holy Faith is not some exclusive little club, It is Light and Life, Life more abuntantly in Messiah Jesus, Branch to the Nations, the Morning Star, Prince of Prince, the Fourth Man in the furnance, an He Who wrestled with Jacob, and gave him a New Name, Israel. Jesus, to Whom every knee shall bow, amen.

neil

 2010/10/17 7:30
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: my dear Nasher

Dear Neil,

Although your previous posts were not directed to me, as a Brit I appreciate your humble apology as I did indicate I was offended. So please accept forgivenss from me.

Quote:
Covenant leads to Covenant leads to Final Covenant, the New Covenant, which is the Final destination, opened by the Blood of Jesus, much the same way, a highway is built section, by section by section, and the sadness, the terrible grief i feel is that many of the people of my flesh, are using incomplete 'roadmaps', dissauded in picking up a "new roadmap", by either hardness of heart, or focusing on the terror of history, and by God's design, so that the full measure of Gentiles may be brought in to be Children of Abraham, then by the Mercy of God, they shall be given the 'full roadmap' leading to Messiah in the blink of an eye.



There is much truth here. Although some would say that the covenants are seperate and different, I would tend to agree that there is a common goal that our LORD has been wanting to establish in mankind; i.e. He wants our hearts and not just the outward form. He aways planned that the law be written on our hearts and circumcision be of the heart, not just the flesh.


_________________
Dave

 2010/10/17 15:46Profile









 Re: my dear Nasher

Quote:
God has not forgotten the Jew,



Very lovely post brother, and I most certainly forgive you.

Just a comment on the comment in quotes. When Jesus came He came for the Jews. As it is written, "John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

Your a Jew by flesh, if hardness is upon Israel, how did you believe? And Jesus further said, "Few there be that find it". So only a few will receive and that includes both Jew and Gentile.

As much as the Jews will not receive the Gospel, the same goes for the many Gentile who do not.

I guess what I am saying is, the hardness had to have been lifted ages ago because not only you have received, but the thousands in the early Church as well as the "few" in this day and age receive the gospel.

I am just thinking out loud Brother.

 2010/10/17 19:58









 Re: A New Covenant


Neil,

Thank you, greatly, for sharing what the Lord has now shown you. That was an awesome revelation, which will continue to be a joy to meditate upon. It is giving me much food for thought.

 2010/10/18 9:05









 Re: A New Covenant



Snuf,

Quote:
I guess what I am saying is, the hardness had to have been lifted ages ago because not only you have received, but the thousands in the early Church as well as the "few" in this day and age receive the gospel.

I am just thinking out loud Brother.

I don't want to throw the direction of the thread, but I'm beginning to notice that scripture is utterly consistent on one point, which is, that hearing comes by the word of God.

Only within the context of having recognised the word of God, can Paul write:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art...'

So, in every generation there are those who hear of God, and His word, or, from God directly, who do accept the faith which His word creates, and by believing begin to enter a deeper relationship with Him. Those who reject His word find they have received the alternative - the instead-of-God, (or the I-am-god), which by default is untrue and cannot lead to light or life.

1 Cor 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them [is] without signification.

 2010/10/18 9:45
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

The word of God cannot be understood by the carnal (non-spirit-led) man he can only be confused and come to erroneous exegesis. Thats why covenant theology causes so much confusion. There are too many bible scholars who use their carnal mind to try and derive conclusions of the truth. Whilst we have a responsibility to study the word of God our focus should yield to the holy spirit and let him teach us as the scripture promises. If you try to teach yourself you will only end up in error.

A new covenant but the same "ancient of days" God that has been faithful to his covenant people. Death of christ on the cross ushered in a change of priesthood and reformation to how people entered into a covenant relationship with God. Gods ultimate plan for fallen humanity was always Jesus. The bible is simply a story of Gods plan for the redemption of man. Along the way he cuts various covenants but ultimately they all lead us to Christ.

Conclusion

Same old covenant God but a reformation in covenant with much better terms and conditions (see small print)
When reading the law and the prophets (OT) do you see and are you led Christ? or does your study led away from chirst into incessant never ending controversies and disputes? What do you think are studying of the OT is supposed to do?

 2010/10/20 7:12Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy