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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A New Covenant

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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: "at the same time, provide a 'sign for Israel'.



If:

Acts 2:5-6 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

With understanding. 1 Corinthians 12:10-11 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 14:15-19 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

For the Body of Christ, tongues are for the unbeliever also.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/23 12:28Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

continued from... philologos on 2010/8/12 7:57:40
"I'll take a pause and then go on to see how this covenant came into being and the nation of Israel became the Covenant Community of Jehovah."

We have the record of several covenants coming into being in the Scripture, they are all very helpful in understanding the nature of a covenant's inauguration. I'll just continue a little with the Sinai Covenant. Although the New Covenant is not the Sinai Covenant...

“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. Jer 31:31–32 NKJV

...nevertheless the New Covenant is a covenant and will can learn much from watching how covenants were inaugurated. This is particularly true of the Sinai Covenant.

First a pre-amble. It seems that there was some rudimentary pattern of priesthood and cultic ceremony before Sinai. We can pick up several hints about this..

1. Also let the priests who come near the LORD consecrate themselves, lest the LORD break out against them.” Ex 19:22 NKJV

If we follow the narrative carefully we shall discover that the Levitical priests did not function until the Tabernacle had been built and the Levitical priesthood was inaugurated. The best part of a year later. So who were these priests?

2. And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD. And he rose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. Then he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt offerings and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen to the LORD. Ex 24:4–5 NKJV

Again, if we follow the narrative carefully we shall find that the instructions for the Levitical Burnt Offering and Peace Offering had not been given at this time. It seems that these young men were following an older pattern of which we know little.

3. Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the LORD went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. Ex 33:7 NKJV

Before the Tabernacle was constructed and the priesthood instituted a temporary Tabernacle was erected, not in the centre of the camp as was the case for the Tabernacle proper, but specifically outside the camp. It seems the restrictions of access did not operate on this tabernacle and Joshua, who was from the tribe of Ephraim, was able to remain in that tabernacle.

The point I am making is that people were already communicating with God in the era before the Sinai Covenant. The thing to notice about the Sinai Covenant is that these individuals who have 'accessed' God in previous times and ways are about to become Jehovah's Covenant Community and everything will change.

In a similar way the disciples of Jesus were able to 'access' him. He instructed them and guided them. But during the whole of his time on earth he was longing for something more...

“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Luke 12:49–50 NKJV

That 'baptism to be baptised with' is his cross and beyond that an entirely different kind of relationship. A different kind of 'covenant'.

Moses began the inauguration of the Sinai Covenant with the words ...

And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.” Ex 24:8 NKJV

Jesus, as the mediator of the New Covenant, took his cue from Moses...

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. Luke 22:20 NKJV


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/23 14:23Profile
Areadymind
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Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: :)

OK, I know, here we go again. I had asked about how the gospel or Euangellion had been preached to those in the wilderness. Adisciple responded:

"Their glad tidings, their gospel, was the promise of an earthly inheritance in the land of Canaan... which gospel those in the wilderness drew back from in unbelief."

I agree this is in a sense the fullness of it. However I have often wondered if it did not go something like this...

1) Moses declared deliverance from Egypt (the world)

2) Judgment came in the face of pride as a result we saw a demonstration of the wrath of God.

3) The paschal lamb was offered in lieu of the lives of the firstborn, thus we see a massive picture of the gospel.

4) Israel is willing and more than co-operative in the blood on the posts, saving their own children from the wrath of the death angel. (salvation, justification)

5) The exodus (walk with God) begins.

6) Baptism in the red sea

7) The reception of God's intention for His people.

8) The advancement of the kingdom through participation with God in the land of Canaan.

It is at this point, where God requires of them to become participant in advancing His intention, that fear, cowardice, faithlessness comes to a logger head.

I have, in recent times, been praying about this in my own life. How it seems that the "glad tidings" and all the work God did through Moses was so readily accepted, but when the actual work and participation with those "glad tidings" was expected (partnering with God in the work of the good news)...hearts were hardened in the provocation.

I find this to be so consistently true in so many of our own lives, and wonder if the warning to not harden our hearts in the same way is not one of the more serious warnings in the New Testament. At least I have seen this to be so.

If so much of what has been said here about the New Heart is true, why is it then I find that my heart seems to need to be renewed so often? Am I not really there if I find my heart to be hardened to God's grace and I trip and fall into sin?

Someone may have covered this before, I just confess that whenever I read that passage in Jeremiah...some times it is like water slipping through my fingers.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/31 14:59Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

"If so much of what has been said here about the New Heart is true, why is it then I find that my heart seems to need to be renewed so often? Am I not really there if I find my heart to be hardened to God's grace and I trip and fall into sin? Someone may have covered this before, I just confess that whenever I read that passage in Jeremiah...some times it is like water slipping through my fingers."

One of the difficulties of this way of communication is that we don't know each other. So when I hear such heartfelt cries, I can only pray and believe that the Lord hears you.

Whether you are really there at rest with Him, or are struggling with sin in your heart, there is still only one answer. 'Look to Jesus' and not to yourself. If you by faith have entered in and received the Holy Spirit, then you are finished with your own works and at rest.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Heb 4:9-10 (KJV)
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:14-16 (KJV)

If you find your heart to be hardened to God's grace and you trip and fall into sin, and you hate yourself for falling short all the time, be assured that God agrees with you and you are agreeing with Him. This is Faith. On the basis of this mutual agreement, you can find true repentance and the free gift of His Spirit. You will cry with Paul

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 7:24-25 (KJV)

davidc


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david

 2010/8/31 19:09Profile
Areadymind
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Joined: 2009/5/15
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 Re:

I understand that what I said can lead one to believe I am trapped in all sorts of heinous stuff.

This is not the case (well I guess that depends on if you think what I am about to confess is heinous or not.) As a believer I have received very much deliverance from the appetites of the old man if you will. I know to not earn the grace of God but to receive it humbly through His spoken word. I have experienced all sorts of victory in my life for which I am eternally indebted to my Lord. The old terrifying sins that kept me from God are almost instantly repelled by the Holy Spirit, and I turn to prayer with every wicked temptation which would lead me to intentional sin.

However...I guess that for me for the last year or so, I have been really stuck in Romans 7. It is the things that I know I am supposed to do (not the things I am not supposed to do, if you catch the difference) that so often are sin. Example: I stub my toe on my son's bouncy chair that my wife leaves in every possible place I could walk and I want to burst out in explitives...I don't, but the wretched desire is so still there in me. Or another example would be that my heart still seems so indifferent at times to the lost and dying world.

It seems that there is a dichotomy within me that is willing to suffer for righteousness sake but I am such a hypocrite in that the slightest physical suffering that I do not perceive to be "for the kingdom" just annoys me to no end.

I guess those are the sins I struggle with so much. It is the positing of the faith, it is the advancement of things it is the reacting to every thing that is thrown at me with the nature and character of Christ that I find to be so sorely lacking...this is the sin that is besetting me. It is these weights I feel hold me back so much, and keep me in a nearly perpetual state of Spiritual frustration.

I guess I have been terrified to realize that I would not have been one of the two spies who would have brought back a good report. I would have been one of the nay-sayers...I would have died in the wilderness.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/31 19:36Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Hi Jeremiah:

I think you're right that, in what Israel of old went through (to use your own words) "we see a massive picture of the gospel."

Paul says that what they went through happened unto them "for ensamples" (or types) for us "upon whom the ends of the ages are come" (2 Cor. 10.11).

I appreciated your post, and identify with a lot of what you said myself.

You said, "If so much of what has been said here about the New Heart is true, why is it then I find that my heart seems to need to be renewed so often? Am I not really there if I find my heart to be hardened to God's grace and I trip and fall into sin? Someone may have covered this before, I just confess that whenever I read that passage in Jeremiah...some times it is like water slipping through my fingers."

I assume by the passage in Jeremiah you are talking about Jer. 31.31-34 in which God promises the coming of a New Covenant.

One thing I think important to realize is the promise element of this New Covenant.

The writer of Hebrews in comparing the two covenants says this: "But now hath He obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also He is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises" (Heb. 8.6).

Better promises, he says. Promises. When it seems this New Covenant is like water slipping through our fingers, seems it just isn't working the way it's supposed to, we need to continue to look to the mediator of this Covenant. We are told He is faithful, and will not fail to mediate this Covenant, "as also Moses was faithful in all His house" (Heb. 3.3). Moses fully and completely mediated the Old Covenant. Christ shall also be faithful to mediate the New.

I think also of Paul's words in 2 Corinthians, where he also compares the two covenants, saying that the New Covenant has the promise of a glory that does not fade. "Seeing then we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech, and not as Moses..." (2 Cor. 3.12).

Our experiences are of seeming inability to abide in this Life, and of having to have our hearts "renewed so often," as you said, or seeing it slip through our fingers. It seems to fade. Why, if it's not supposed to fade? But "seeing then we have such HOPE..." Paul says. And so we want to continue to embrace the HOPE which is an anchor for us that enters into that within the veil.

Or again in Romans, Paul again speaks of hope. You mean Paul himself didn't have the New Covenant yet? Yes, of course he did... but not in its fulness. He was anticipating a great fulfillment of it all. "For we are saved by hope..." he says. My Interlinear has "For in hope we were saved..." (Rom. 8.24). That is, in the sphere of hope. "But hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it."

So we, along with Paul, we look in HOPE for the great fulfillment of the Covenant.

...I think many Christians are in the place you are in now. I know I am. It isn't that this New Covenant has failed... or that something has gone wrong... or that we have just missed the boat somehow, or are maybe inferior material, or something. No, we must continue to look to Jesus (as David C said)... "the author and perfector of faith..." We must continue to present ourselves before our Great High Priest the mediator of the Covenant, as the priests of old presented themselves before Moses.

He will finish what He started. For our part, let us continue to believe Him, not as those in the wilderness who drew back, and short-circuited God's intention for them.


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Allan Halton

 2010/8/31 21:30Profile
davidc
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Joined: 2010/8/15
Posts: 272
France

 Re:

Two years is a long time to be stuck in Romans 7. I remember reading Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress where he said it was like a great dark high mountain looming over him. But you're not the only one to get stuck there. For Paul, it was his personal testimony. John Westley had his 'strangely warmed' experience when listening to Romans 7 being expounded. I, myself, miserable creature, was stuck there for 20 years, and attending and ministering in the most blessed of churches, but harbouring sin deep in my heart. Ah! the heart, the heart, so deceitful, so wicked, so desperate.

But God is merciful and patient. He took me away from all these things and got me on my own and began to show me my sin as He saw it. I found myself agreeing wholeheartedly with God in His judgement of me. This was the beginning of Faith.
I saw that to escape Romans 7, I had to get into Romans 8 and live there. Obvious really.
But of couse, verse 9 threw me 'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'.
Then, two years ago, I was out cycling in the beautiful french countryside admiring the beauty of creation, singing and praising God, when He spoke to me and told me of his love to me, to me.
I found enormous springs of faith welling in me and I knew that He, the Holy Ghost had come.

What can I say to you my dear brother, The only way to live pleasing to God is by Romans 8; - walk after the spirit, no condemnation, Christ Jesus has made me free, to be spiritualy minded is Life and Peace, and of course - Nothing Nothing, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen. Not that I am made perfect, but better than that, I am crucified with Christ.

As God said through Moses to Israel:
"The Lord our God spake unto us in Horeb, saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount: Turn you, and take your journey Deut 1:6-7 (KJV)

And Jesus grant you rest


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david

 2010/8/31 21:38Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: """What can I say to you my dear brother, The only way to live pleasing to God is by Romans 8; - walk after the spirit, no condemnation, Christ Jesus has made me free, to be spiritualy minded is Life and Peace, and of course - Nothing Nothing, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Amen. Not that I am made perfect, but better than that, I am crucified with Christ."""

Praise God, "It is no longer I who live But Christ who lives in me".

This is who the Father sees now, for I have died with Christ and I am a new creature, "Christ in me the Hope of Glory".

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/31 21:51Profile
Areadymind
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Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

Dear brother Phillip...Oh dear brother, do not ever ever ever let anyone accuse you of being inconsistent. I must admit, your post made me laugh with joy!


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/31 22:26Profile
Areadymind
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Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

By the way, thank you for the encouragement David and Adisciple.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/31 22:34Profile





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