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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : A New Covenant

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BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

just a few days ago...8/18


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Denver McDaniel

 2010/8/21 12:50Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I prefer not to use the 'gap theory' label. Just because we have enough debris to sift through without creating more.

I think it does open up the prospect of a 'second blessing' although I don't usually use that label either.

The implications? I think we need to radically challenge preaching for a decision. There will be decisions and response is vital but we must not prescribe the manner of those responses. We must allow God to do his own work.

In a pastoral care I constantly find folk who have put their faith in the 'cross' link and have a genuine sense of sins forgiven but who have not 'received' life in any conscious sense. To say what do we do with these folks is to slip back into another counselling technique. We have to get people 'onto Christ' and 'get out of the way'. We can pray for them and talk to them but we must resist the temptation to programme them.

The implications? for the teachers... a more severe judgment.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/21 15:10Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
In a pastoral care I constantly find folk who have put their faith in the 'cross' link and have a genuine sense of sins forgiven but who have not 'received' life in any conscious sense. To say what do we do with these folks is to slip back into another counselling technique. We have to get people 'onto Christ' and 'get out of the way'.



I don't know that the question is "what does the preacher do?", although wouldn't the answer be, like Peter and John and Paul, to lay on hands and pray for the Spirit? More importantly, for the person who hasn't had the life experience, what do THEY do? Do you think the "receiving life" experience is similar to the experiences in Acts, i.e. some sort of external manifestation. If so, then that points to most of the church throughout history not receiving life, except for trickles throughout history. Are those who only have sins forgiven "stuck" and are not yet "Christ's" via the Spirit of the New Covenant? What are the implications for these folks? Would scripture call them sheep? And if not, that means goats, so then what was the purpose of their justification?


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Denver McDaniel

 2010/8/21 16:03Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We can pray for them and talk to them but we must resist the temptation to programme them.



I think it takes going back and revisiting how we have come to decisional Christianity. We need to realize that there was a time when ministers refused to sort of bait responders into some form of response. I think it began with Finney and went downhill from there. Today it is so deeply intrenched in ministers minds that its hard for them to imagine that God could actually deal with a person without their step by step help. It seems that the disciples waited until they were asked questions before they offered solutions. Today evangelism often sounds like a staged sales pitch. I notice that Jonah went through town simply declaring God's pronouncements and allowed the people to use their horse sense to figure out what to do.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/8/21 17:07Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Ron said, "Aren't you glad that Covenant with its blessings and its curses has been 'taken away' and a New Covenant 'established' in its place?"

...Methinks I detect a bit of mischief. :)

"See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape if we turn away from Him that speaketh from Heaven..." (Heb. 12.25)


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Allan Halton

 2010/8/21 19:23Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

BeYeDoers on 2010/8/21 18:03:44
"I don't know that the question is "what does the preacher do?", although wouldn't the answer be, like Peter and John and Paul, to lay on hands and pray for the Spirit? More importantly, for the person who hasn't had the life experience, what do THEY do? Do you think the "receiving life" experience is similar to the experiences in Acts, i.e. some sort of external manifestation."

This is EXACTLY what I was wanting to avoid. I think if we cannot distinguish between receiving the Spirit and external manifestation we are going to be constantly talking at cross purposes. I believe in a conscious 'receiving of the Spirit' but I refuse to acknowledge any 'initial evidence' of that experience.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/22 14:40Profile
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Reading, UK

 Re:

ADisciple on 2010/8/21 21:23:22

"..Methinks I detect a bit of mischief. :)"

who? me? surely not?

Seriously I can see why you might have thought it but that wasn't my intention. I wanted to underline that the Old Covenant is a package deal and we have no biblical authority to cut and paste from that Covenant. If you sign up for it you are stuck with it. Or as Paul puts it...

And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. Gal 5:3 NKJV

or as James puts it...

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/22 14:45Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Ron said, "who? me? surely not?

"Seriously I can see why you might have thought it but that wasn't my intention. I wanted to underline that the Old Covenant is a package deal and we have no biblical authority to cut and paste from that Covenant. If you sign up for it you are stuck with it."

...Okay, I'll let you off. :) I understand now where you were coming from. And the passage you quoted certainly shows that the Old Covenant is, as Travis, I think it was, posted a few pages back, like a plate glass window. You break it in one little place, and the whole thing is broken.

But where I was coming from... the New Covenant, like the Old, also has its teeth. I know it cannot be broken in those who have in themselves "the Surety" of the Covenant (Heb. 7.22) ...but also in Hebrews and other places there is much warning that there are consequences for trifling with God.

"For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense and reward, How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation..." (Heb. 2.3).


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Allan Halton

 2010/8/22 16:02Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I would agree that the external manifestation can never be the focus, and I think the Pentecostals/Charismatics have caused as much harm as good by focusing on tongues and not "life". We must draw a distinguishing line. However, when asking "where do I fit in?" I have to do something with the experiences of those in scripture. I can't just ignore it, right? The "manifestations" in Acts were never exactly the same for any two groups of people, and for most of those "added to the church", no manifestations are mentioned at all. But at some level, they all KNEW the Spirit "came", and we know from Paul's letters that he too knew the Spirit came to those to whom he wrote.

Would I be right to conclude that external manifestations served specific purposes for specific groups, but the real question for each believer is "did you receive the Spirit when you believed?" (which only implies, as you say, a conscious experience, independent of anything that may or may not be external)


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Denver McDaniel

 2010/8/22 16:07Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

BeYeDoers on 2010/8/22 18:07:33
"The "manifestations" in Acts were never exactly the same for any two groups of people, and for most of those "added to the church", no manifestations are mentioned at all. But at some level, they all KNEW the Spirit "came", and we know from Paul's letters that he too knew the Spirit came to those to whom he wrote."

This is very much the way I would see the Scripture record.


"Would I be right to conclude that external manifestations served specific purposes for specific groups, but the real question for each believer is "did you receive the Spirit when you believed?" (which only implies, as you say, a conscious experience, independent of anything that may or may not be external)"

Can I add a single word? the word 'may'. I think external manifestations may serve more than one purpose in this. I think tongues 'may' have a particular significance in the context of 'unbelieving Jews'. By 'unbelieving' I don't mean that they are not genuine believers but that they may struggle with the notion of eg gentiles in the covenant. This seems to be Paul's comment in 1 Corinthians. Although this passage is notoriously difficult for the commentators.

God, after all, works 'all things together' and while tongues are a wonderful release for the individual they may, at the same time, provide a 'sign for Israel'.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/23 11:23Profile





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