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philologos
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Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

knitefall on 2010/8/11 0:37:37 writes
"You always have two things running simultaneously. You have the earthly life that we live. Yes, Scripturally, the O/C is at work on these persons, (law of death). AND... A-N-D you also should observe the Faith Life[Zoe] (Law of Life in Jesus) our LORD. "

Shawn
I think you have Rom 8 in mind?
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:2 NKJV

I think this is a slightly different issue but even so if we take note of the tenses that Paul, by the Spirit, is using here it will be instructive...

Paul isn't saying that these two 'laws' are 'running simultaneously'; he is saying that one law 'has freed' him from the other.

ἠλευθέρωσέν Verb 3 sing aor act indic to free, set free, release.
Perhaps the safest way of translating the aorist tense is with a simple English past tense as here in the NKJV.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/11 4:43Profile
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 Re:

knitefall on 2010/8/11 0:37:37 writes
"You always have two things running simultaneously. You have the earthly life that we live. Yes, Scripturally, the O/C is at work on these persons, (law of death). AND... A-N-D you also should observe the Faith Life[Zoe] (Law of Life in Jesus) our LORD. "

If I may add to this observation. Paul states that the purpose of the law is to conclude all under sin. It stopped the mouths of the whole world and condemned all as guilty before God. If guilty, then condemned. But Christ came to fulfill the law, to be the one who could redeem us from this curse of the law. Paul also tells us that what the law could not do, because it was weak in the flesh, Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh. I would not say that a born again believer's physical body lives under the OC while his spirit under the NC. I would say those who live after the flesh are under the "curse" of the OC if you will in that they are under condemnation. See Romans 8 as philologos suggested.

Those who are not born again are condemned by the law and try as they might to live a good life and be, as we say in America, a "good old boy" they can never through their flesh be good enough to merit salvation. The OC condemns them, but does nothing to save them. Those who are born again but return to the law, Paul dealt with in Galatians. These Christians are usually living under condemnation, confused, wondering if they have been good enough yet, struggling with legalism in their own lives.

But praise God we have been delivered from that. Gal. 5 tells us to stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free and be not entangled again in the yoke of bondage. That yoke, according to Paul in Gal. 5 is the yoke of the old covenant, the yoke of law. It was a bondage that we are never to become entangled in again.


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Travis

 2010/8/11 8:19Profile









 Re: A New Covenant

Hi rookie :-) You asked (p41 of the thread)

'Psa 23:3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.
...........................................................

How does God accomplish this work in the life of an OT saint?

Is it by the covenant of Mount Sinai or the covenant of Abraham?'


I would suggest there is more than one point in the verse you quoted. In the same way as God breathed life into the form of a man (Adam) which raised him to natural life, His 'I am the Resurrection' power was able to restore the soul of the believer (David) in a measure. David does not claim that this restoration transformed him into a 'son of God'.

'He leads me in paths of righteousness' is always true of God. It remains for His creation - the man - to follow Him there.

There is a strong implication in God's word to Abraham, that this is limited to what is within the reach of the natural man: Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere} 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee,

Had that covenant been made/completed at this point in time?

(Apologies if this response covers old ground. My time online is limited.)

Edit: Therefore, I venture that David's experience of God's restoration and leadership was dependent on neither covenant, but upon God Himself, and His and David's relationship with each other, in (His) love. For instance:

Psa 26:1 <<[A Psalm] of David.>> Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; [therefore] I shall not slide. 2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart. 3 For thy lovingkindness [is] before mine eyes: and I have walked in thy truth.

Psa 36:5 Thy mercy, O LORD, [is] in the heavens; [and] thy faithfulness [reacheth] unto the clouds. 6 Thy righteousness [is] like the great mountains; thy judgments [are] a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast. 7 How excellent [is] thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings. {excellent: Heb. precious}


 2010/8/11 9:39
philologos
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 Re:

jeff asks...
Psa 23:3 He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.

"How does God accomplish this work in the life of an OT saint?

Is it by the covenant of Mount Sinai or the covenant of Abraham?'"

This is a little bit like being asked 'would you rather be shot or hung?"

All God's dealings with men have been and will always be on the foundation of Calvary. That 'eternal' sacrifice casts its shadow backwards and forwards at the same time. This is why we say that God's dealings with men have always been on the basis of grace.

a man or woman can find forgiveness outside any covenant. This is part of the significance of ...

And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Then He said to him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.” Gen 15:4–7 NKJV

Paul points out that this event was pre-circumcision. In fact, pre-covenant. Abraham was not in any kind of formal covenant with God when he received justification by faith and according to Paul, by the Spirit, David describes that kind of justification by saying that it includes.. remission and atonement and God's refusal to keep an account of sins committed.

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” Rom 4:4–8 NKJV

David, who wrote Psalm 23, is a fascinating historical character in that he lived at a time when the Old Covenant was technically in force but was in practice dysfunctional. There had been no 'Day of Atonement' within living memory when David wrote this Psalm. David had no faith in Calvary but his faith in God was faith in the God who works grace to men on the basis of Calvary whether they know of it or not.

Consequently, the answer to your question is 'neither'. God did not accomplish this work either by the Covenant of Abraham or the Covenant of Sinai. He accomplished it by (ie through) justifying faith.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/11 10:17Profile
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 Re:

"All God's dealings with men have been and will always be on the foundation of Calvary. That 'eternal' sacrifice casts its shadow backwards and forwards at the same time. This is why we say that God's dealings with men have always been on the basis of grace."

As long as I have been reading this thread, that is one of the best sentences written yet. If you do not see this in scripture, then the lives of men like Daniel, Joseph, and Enoch make absolutely no sense whatsoever.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/11 10:20Profile
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 Re:

By the way, I have a very particular interest in the outcome of this thread, as recently I was told by a 7th Day Adventist, "I don't believe in all this 'New Covenant' garbage!"

I realized when he said it that my understanding of it all was not as good as it ought to be. Please continue to show love and understanding with one another, I don't want to see this thread locked down.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/11 10:25Profile
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 Re: the Church of Jehovah or the Church of Jesus Christ?

The nation of Israel became the ‘assembly of Jehovah’ at Sinai through the ministry of Moses. This is what Stephen is referring to in Acts when he says...
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" Acts 7:37–38 KJV

I have intentionally quoted from the old KJV here to make a link. Stephen refers to the ‘church in the wilderness’; ἐκκλησίᾳ ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ. More modern versions use the word ‘congregation’ which is a good modern equivalent. But we should not miss the link that Stephen who was a Greek speaking Jew and who was familiar with the Greek version of the Old Testament used the word ‘ekklesia’. The Greek Old Testament known as the Septuagint (LXX) uses the word ‘ekklesia’ a hundred times. It refers, mostly, to the congregation or assembly of God’s people. At Sinai they became the ‘ekklesia of Jehovah’. They were added to that ‘church or congregation’ through the ministry of Moses the mediator of the Old Covenant. Moses, and submission to his law, became the doorway through which others could become members of that ‘church’ or ‘congregation’. There were some racial prohibitions but otherwise anyone could become a member of that ‘church’ as long as they submitted themselves to the Sinai Covenant.

All the post-Sinai saints of the Old Testament were members of the ‘ekklesia of Jehovah’. This would have included the disciples of Jesus. It was an axiom of their lives that they were part of the Covenant people and hence members of the ‘ekklesia of God’. Imagine their surprise then when one day Christ said;

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Matt 16:18 NKJV

Try to put yourselves in their shoes... you know you are a member of the church of God, as were your forefathers before you... how will you react to this statement that Jesus intends to build his own church? The tense is very clearly future. At the moment of him saying these words ‘I will build my church’ the words are a statement of future intention. Your ancestors have been part of the church of God, how will you respond to the possibility of becoming a member of a different church with a different mediator?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/11 14:37Profile
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 Re:

Does Hebrews 4:2 tie in in any way with what you just talked about Ron? KJV reading please.

And could you explain your implication in the last two paragraphs a bit more bluntly?


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/11 14:48Profile
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 Re:

Areadymind on 2010/8/11 12:20:12
writes:
"As long as I have been reading this thread, that is one of the best sentences written yet. If you do not see this in scripture, then the lives of men like Daniel, Joseph, and Enoch make absolutely no sense whatsoever."

I often tell this story. We had 7 children and much of life was a queue! One day we took our children to an exhibition. It had one of those turnstiles which admitted one person at a time as they paid their entrance fee. We joined the queue. The woman on the gate let 4 of my children through without them paying! How could she do this? ...because she saw me coming with the money in my hand. My one payment covered those who went before me and those who came behind me.

So it has been with Calvary.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:21–26 NKJV

Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, Daniel and all those who came before Calvary have access because the 'Father saw HIM coming with the money in his hand'.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/11 14:54Profile
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 Re:

Areadymind on 2010/8/11 16:48:37 writes:
"Does Hebrews 4:2 tie in in any way with what you just talked about Ron? KJV reading please.

And could you explain your implication in the last two paragraphs a bit more bluntly?"

For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. Heb 4:2 NKJV

Salvation has always been by faith and we are told very plainly why this should be...

Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all Rom 4:16 NKJV

"it is of faith that it might be according to grace".

God has always been determined that salvation would be His free gift. Because he has determined it should be by grace it could only every have been through the channel of faith.

The list of the heroes of faith in Heb 11 is a list of people who did not know the 'Calvary' part of the story but they put their reliance wholly upon God. With each one of them 'God counted his faith as righteousness'. This has often been said but it will bear being repeated. We evangelicals have often used the language of 'I made Jesus my personal saviour'. It puts all the emphasis in the wrong places. The wonder of the gospel is that God 'has made Jesus my personal Saviour'. Even though the men and women of the old testament had no personal knowledge of Christ as their Saviour, God still accepted them on the basis of the 'propitiation' that he provides in Calvary.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/11 15:05Profile





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