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BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Phanetheus, I would like to ask you to please be still, and consider how you handle scripture and respond to the brethren. There have been several recent threads where you have been downright accusatory and insulting to those who don't bow to your every thought regarding scriptures and certain "pet" theologies you seem to have. Ron started this thread, and for the longest time, it remained civil. But your downright disregard for discussion, as opposed to insults and/or patronizations you inevitably fall back on, is making this thread, and all the others you are part of, very distasteful.

Furthermore, the way you cut and paste and alter and disregard clear readings of scripture is frightening. For example, in another thread you said:

Quote:
Jesus, in the book of John plainly states that His body is given "for the (biological-)life of the world."



Jesus didn't plainly state any such thing. Your methods are in line with the JWs. You intentionally ADD words to scripture and then claim that "clearly" that is what it states, just so it fits your theology. It's really quite incredible.

You argue a point from grammar, and then someone points out that your grammar (whether English or Greek) is wrong, and then instead of continuing forward with humility, you either invent some other reason that fits your predetermined theology, or ignore it altogether and continue to repeat your same arguments, as if somehow by you repeating them it makes them more true. Or further still, you just set up straw men and then be smug about knocking them down. It doesn't make anyone care to listen to anything you have to say.

The theme of Galatians is Paul fighting the notion that there are now 2 covenants coinciding, and that even if you are in the new, you must still perform the works of the old. Paul teaches that the Old pointed to Christ. Now that CHrist is here, we must walk in the New, and distinctly NOT the Old.

Jesus said he fulfilled the law and the prophets. He rebuked the Pharisees for obeying the Old but not recognizing that it was now fully revealed, and that the New is here. True, he stated that he did not come to abolish the Old. He didn't. He embodied it. And now our lives are enjoined to Him who fulfilled the Old Covenant, through the New Covenant.

The theme of Hebrews is that we are now under a BETTER covenant with BETTER promises. Not an additional covenant with additional promises. If the Old is still in play then Jesus came and died for nothing. But Jesus FULFILLED the Old. There is now no functioning of the Old because there is no need of priests, sacrifices, altars, temples, etc. because HE IS all that. He accomplished all that.

No one here is advocating antinomianism, if that's what you are thinking. But the law is no longer on tables of stone, it is written in our hearts. One of distinct changes that took place once the NEW and BETTER came.


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2010/8/10 20:21Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

For any who might be having trouble with the posts on this thread claiming that the Old Covenant is still in effect (it’s astonishing that Christians should even have to give this the time of day) …but here are three other passages of Scripture besides the ones in Hebrews that show plainly that this is simply not true.

“And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath he quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it” (Col. 2.13-15).

Quite something, that. The “handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us…” And what would that be? Merely the ceremonial law? No, it’s the whole of the Law, in fact particularly the Ten Commandments, that was against us and contrary to us. And God took it “out of the way, nailing it to His Cross…”

That’s confirmed here also:

“For He is our peace who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make (create) in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby…” (Eph. 2.14-16).

What is abolished, or rendered powerless… made of no effect? “The law of commandments contained in ordinances…” That’s the “fence” that separated Jew and Gentile, the fence the Jews gloried in… and God tore it down at the Cross! And His purpose in it was to create of both Jew (under the Law) and Gentile (not under that Law) ONE NEW MAN in Christ, in Him having slain “the enmity,” that is, the Law, slaying the Law in His cross, and then rising from the dead the beginning of a NEW CREATION with a Law that is part of His very nature now: even “the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus,” which becomes the Law of the Covenant He joins us to, that is, those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk “not after the flesh but after the Spirit” (Rom. 8.4).

What wonderful things are here!

…And then this passage in 2 Corinthians in which Paul speaks of those who had a veil over their hearts and minds “in the reading of the old testament,” and because of that veil could not see that that covenant—the one he calls old now—is “done away in Christ.” (2 Cor. 3.14). And he goes on, adding, “But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.” Notice, Paul uses the same word here we find in Hebrews, calling “the ministration of death” the “OLD covenant.”

Paul is referring to the passage in Exodus Ch. 34 where Moses has come down from the mount with the tables of testimony in his hand, and his face is shining with the reflected glory of God that came upon him “while he talked with Him” (Ex. 34.29). And so Moses, with this glory upon his face, speaks with the children of Israel what God has spoken with him. But as Moses ministered… and Exodus 34 is a bit vague here, but the apostle makes it clear what happened, and why Moses put the veil on his face. He didn’t put the veil on while he was speaking to them, but “that (or, so that) the children of Israel could not steadfastly look TO THE END of that which is abolished” (2 Cor. 3.13). Why would he do that? It was “the end” of it all that Moses was veiling. It appears he was moving prophetically, for the tragic hour would come when the children of Israel would be unable to see that the covenant they gloried in was fading and in fact being done away and brought to an end, as Paul explains in the very next verse: “But their minds were blinded: for until this day the same veil remaineth untaken away in the reading of the old testament…”

…This is all very clear, and conclusive to the open heart. If the old covenant were still in effect it would not be called old now. There is a very obvious reason why it’s called “old” now. It’s because there is a NEW and better covenant in place now.

…This issue has been dealt with thoroughly over and over again on this thread. The fact that it is still being brought up again and again is clear evidence of this very veil Paul speaks of.

But there is hope: “Nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now ‘the Lord’ is the Spirit…”


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/8/10 20:47Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Amen


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2010/8/10 20:52Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Comparing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant.


Old Covenant
(Law of Moses)
“For the law was given by Moses,” John 1:17
New Covenant
(Grace)
“[but] grace and truth is come by Jesus Christ.” John 1:17b

You can sum up the requirements of the Old Covenant with this thought.
“Do this and thou shalt live. Don’t do this and thou shalt die.”
(Ex. 19:5, Ex. 31:12, Deut. 30:16-20 Rom. 10:5)
You can sum up the requirements of the New Covenant with this thought.
“Believe this and you shall live. Don’t believe this and you shall die.”
(Rom. 10:6-11, John 5:24, 8:24)

The Law of Moses was introduced under the Old Covenant.
(Ex. 19:1-20:26, Heb. 7:11, John 1:17)
Grace and Mercy is introduced under the New Covenant. (John 1:16-17, Heb. 8:12, 10:16,17)

The Old Covenant demanded perfect obedience to God’s holy law. A transgression on just one point brought the penalty of the law which was death. (Rom. 6:23, Gal. 3:10-12, James 2:10)
The New Covenant demands faith in Christ. By placing our faith in Christ Jesus a person becomes righteous and receives life. (Acts 13:37-39, Rom. 3:21-22, John 1:12, 3:16, Eph. 2:7-9)

The Old Covenant was one of condemnation. There was no mercy or grace under the law of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was external written on stone. It brought forth death and condemnation. (2 Cor. 3:6,7,9, Gal. 3:10,11)
The New Covenant is one of grace and mercy. It is internally in us by the Spirit of the whole and complete fulfillment of the Law Himself. It brings forth life and peace with God. (John 1:16, Eph. 2:7-9, 2Cor. 3:3,6, Heb. 8:10, 10:16)

The Old Covenant had a fault in that it could not produce life or bring one near to God. (Heb. 8:7,8, Heb. 7:18,19, 10:1-4, Rom. 3:20, Gal. 3:21-25)
The New Covenant is the power to give life. We draw near to God through the New Covenant. (John 1:12, Heb. 7:19, 9:9-15)

The Old Covenant was abolished, annulled and made obsolete by the New Covenant. It was temporal and made of no effect by the New Covenant. (Rom. 7:1-6, Eph. 2:13-16, Heb. 7:18,19 8:13, 10:9)
The New Covenant is everlasting. It is based on the promises of God.(Heb. 13:20, Is. 55:3, 61:8)

The Old Covenant was given to the house of Israel only. It never was given to the Gentile people. It became void with the bringing in of the New Covenant. (Ex. 19:1-6, Heb. 7:18, 8:13, 10:9)
The New Covenant is a better Covenant with better promises. It is given to the Jew as well as the Gentile, no preference of either. (Heb. 7:22, 8:6, Eph. 2:11-22, Acts 28:28)

No flesh was ever saved or justified by the law.
Deut. 27:26, Acts 13:37-39, Rom. 3:20, Gal. 3:10-12, James 2:10
Old Covenants saints were redeemed as a result of the New Covenant. (Heb. 9:15, 11:7-40)



_________________
Phillip

 2010/8/10 22:10Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Subverters of Souls



Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”

Some time after the Galatian Church was started and was well on its way to maturity something horrible happened to it. In fact, something so dreadful as to cause the apostle Paul to question the profession of the people there (Gala. 4:11,19). The problem Paul was facing head on, was that the people were turning from the true gospel to a false gospel. Paul is amazed that this happened so quickly to the people of the Galatian Church. How did something so horrible happen to a Church that started out so well? We find the answer in verse 7, “but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.” As one reads the book of Galatians they will discover that trouble makers entered in and started teaching that Christians must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. This very same problem was dealt with by the apostles, elders and brethren of the Church of Jerusalem in Acts 15 (Acts 15:1,5). In Acts 15 the apostles, elders and brethren said that those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses were tempting God and putting a yoke around the neck of the disciples that neither they nor their fathers could bear.

Acts 15:10 “Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?”

They also said that those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses were subverting souls and that they themselves never gave such a command, which means that those who taught this did so on their own authority.

Acts 15:23 “And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment:”

Notice Acts 15:24 teaches it was those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses who were the troublemakers. Galatians 1:7 teaches the same. In fact, Paul teaches in Galatians 1 that those who taught that a Christian must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses were teaching a false gospel. Preaching a false gospel is a serious sin, in fact Paul said "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." These are strong words that should strike fear into the hearts of those who teach this false gospel. Yet, even with such a strong curse to anyone foolish enough to teach this false gospel, the Church today has it’s own troublemakers teaching the very same old age false gospel found in Galatians 1.

Gala. 2:1 “Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with [me] also. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain. 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.”

Titus was living proof that a person could be a Child of God without having to keep the law of Moses. The Word of God says that Titus went with Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem and was not compelled to be circumcised. Yet, those who would subvert the souls of those who listen to them, teach that one must be circumcised according to the law of Moses in order to be saved. Titus was living proof to the contrary. Notice carefully what Paul has to say about those who teach that Christians must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. In verse 4 he calls them false brethren, which means that they were not even saved themselves. This is ironic for the very fact that these unsaved subverter of souls were trying to teach others how to be saved. We remember the Words of Jesus as he confronted the Pharisees over this type of hypocrisy in Matthew 23:

Matt. 23:13 “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.”

These false brethren were spying on the liberty of the real Christians and trying to bring them under bondage to the mosaic law. Paul was earnestly contending for the faith when confronting these subverter of souls, so much so, that he would not give place to them for even a moment. Like Jesus, Paul had sharp rebukes for these lost religious people and fought earnestly against their false gospel of works. Today we have these same subverters of souls in our midst who teach that Christians must keep the law of Moses. They, like the troublemakers of the past, can’t stand the true liberty a child of God has in Christ Jesus and insist that they be put under the bondage of the Mosaic law. They are enemies of the cross and pervert the true Gospel of God and like the Pharisees of old, make their converts twofold more the child of hell than themselves. Thank God for the true Gospel of Jesus Christ which truly sets a soul free.

Gal. 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

Law and Grace cannot be mixed. The apostle Paul made this clear in verse above. The Greek word for frustrate in the above verse means: to do away with, to set aside, to disregard, nullify, to make void, to reject, refuse. Those who think that they are establishing righteousness by the deeds of the law have frustrated the grace of God. No wonder Paul announced such a severe judgement on those who taught that Christians must keep the law of Moses (Galatians 1:6). They were leading people to damnation rather than salvation. In doing so, they became enemies of the cross as Paul shows in the last part of the verse “for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” The cross of Jesus Christ is the single most significant event in history and those who teach righteousness by the deeds of the law turn this grand event into nothing. This is the exact thing that happened to Israel as a whole. They rejected the righteousness that Jesus gained for those who believe on Him and instead set out to establish their own righteousness by the deeds of the law.

Rom. 9:30 “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

The horrible consequences of trying to be righteous by the works of the law, is that those who try to do so will remain lost and without salvation, as Paul goes on to explain:

Rom. 10:1 “Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

Paul acknowledges that Israel had a zeal for God, the problem though was that it was not according to knowledge. In others words, they were religious, but lost. They rejected the righteousness that God offered them through Jesus and foolishly thought that they could attain righteousness by the deeds of the law. In doing so they demonstrated their unbelief. Their only hope of salvation would be to repent of their own efforts of righteousness by the deeds of the law and accept the righteousness of God which one freely receives through the cross of Jesus.

Law and grace cannot be mixed. Living by law will bring damnation and death, living by grace will bring life and a clear conscience before God. Those who teach righteousness through law keeping, subvert the souls of those who foolishly listen to them, those who teach salvation by the grace of God, bring the words of life to those who will listen to them.

Gal. 3:1 “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

Those who teach and hold that Christians must keep the law of Moses would do well to pay attention to the apostle Paul in the above verses. Paul is so amazed that those who were on the right path to begin with are now far removed from the true gospel and have instead embraced a false gospel of law keeping. How can this be? Paul calls the Galatians, who think that they have to keep the law of Moses, foolish (verse 1,3). Paul goes on to demonstrate their foolishness by asking a couple of rhetorical questions. Any one who teaches that Christians must keep the law of Moses would do well to answer these questions as well. Paul first asks:

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”

This is a rhetorical question and the obvious answer is that anyone who is saved was saved by grace through faith and not by their own attempts at keeping the law of Moses as Eph. 2:8-10 declares. Paul then builds upon this question by asking another rhetorical question:

“Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? "

In other words, are you so foolish in acknowledging that you were saved by faith to think that your sanctification will now be made perfect by your fleshly attempts at keeping the law of Moses? Paul is teaching the Galatians by rhetorical questions that not only are they saved by faith but that their perfection is of faith as well. Our salvation is through faith and our Christian walk is by faith, not by the deeds of the law as false teachers would have you believe.

Gal. 3:11 “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”

Today, there are many who want to place Christians under the Ten Commandments, which was a Covenant that God made with the children of Israel from Moses to the cross only. In doing so, they tempt God and subvert the souls of those who listen to them (Acts 15:1,5,10,24). In effect, they become enemies of the cross of Christ and rob the liberty (which is the freedom to serve Christ) a child of God has in Christ. A child of God would do well not to listen to their deceptive lies and instead obey from the heart Galatians 4 and throw out the bondwoman.

Gal. 4:21 “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

Law and grace cannot be mixed.

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A very good article;

In Christ: Phillip

My estimation of truth of Grace and Law which cannot be mixed in Christ.


_________________
Phillip

 2010/8/10 22:13Profile
knitefall
Member



Joined: 2010/3/2
Posts: 251


 Re:

Ya'll keep giving much words. I've said this before:

You always have two things running simultaneously. You have the earthly life that we live. Yes, Scripturally, the O/C is at work on these persons, (law of death). AND... A-N-D you also should observe the Faith Life[Zoe] (Law of Life in Jesus) our LORD.

You must must establish which mode we're discussing. Otherwise there will be argument after argument as no one wants to see where the other is coming from. Please, consider these words.

Everyone is wrong and kind of right at the same time. In Love, Shawn.

 2010/8/10 22:37Profile









 Re:

by BeYeDoers on 2010/8/10 16:21:45

Phanetheus, I would like to ask you to please be still, and consider how you handle scripture and respond to the brethren. There have been several recent threads where you have been downright accusatory and insulting to those who don't bow to your every thought regarding scriptures and certain "pet" theologies you seem to have. Ron started this thread, and for the longest time, it remained civil. But your downright disregard for discussion, as opposed to insults and/or patronizations you inevitably fall back on, is making this thread, and all the others you are part of, very distasteful.
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ok, however is it my disregard for discussion or Ron who is saying, "i'm not going to respond to those posts anymore" or some such thing?

Is it that you do not like the way that there is no beating around the bush from here? How does one argue against scriptures?

Presenting a solid arguement leaves little room for feedback except for those who feel a little shakey about what they though was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

You must think that i sit around all day with nothing better to do than twiddle God's time away by inventing things in this head, and then fritter and waste the hours in typing? NOOO. Alot of things are delegated.

(This whole thing about the validity of the moral and civil codes of Mosaic Law was just revealed and these things are being learned as disagreements come up. Then it is tested IRL. Read Deut. 8-12 and see if you do not see something about the Torah that is not only the revelation of sin.)

You saying that i am disregarding discussion when you don't even research further than what you have been led to think is so is like the pot calling the kettle black. The least you could do is look up the scriptures quoted here and look at the context and see if these things are not so...then look other places relative and see if there is contradiction.


Cite what has been ignored, and even if it has been answered before, like so many times before, it will be repeated, even if you think this is just me thinking that this makes it more correct.
(Read everything before you speak about this: about why things are repeated, so that they will not have to be repeated.)

You really do not need to defend Ron, however if it is yourself that is wondering, as this seems so, this might be a hopefula array of some sort of last line of defence in debate?
The accusations fail you.
Think this through.

Why don't you read rookies posts and phanetheuses from where they start and come back to debate when you are done.
Thanks for the admonishment.
____________________________________________________________

Furthermore, the way you cut and paste and alter and disregard clear readings of scripture is frightening. For example, in another thread you said:

Quote:
Jesus, in the book of John plainly states that His body is given "for the (biological-)life of the world."




Jesus didn't plainly state any such thing. Your methods are in line with the JWs. You intentionally ADD words to scripture and then claim that "clearly" that is what it states, just so it fits your theology. It's really quite incredible.
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In english it only says for the life of the world--and not eternal life, inferring biological life.

In the greek this word life in this verse means boilogical life--and not eternal life.

The word boilogical was placed in parenthesis because if read in context, it is referring to both biological life (primarily) and life after that (secondarily).

That's all.

So knowledgeable about the JW's are we? Tell what they do, because that is not even near what is done here.
____________________________________________________________



You argue a point from grammar, and then someone points out that your grammar (whether English or Greek) is wrong, and then instead of continuing forward with humility, you either invent some other reason that fits your predetermined theology, or ignore it altogether and continue to repeat your same arguments, as if somehow by you repeating them it makes them more true. Or further still, you just set up straw men and then be smug about knocking them down. It doesn't make anyone care to listen to anything you have to say.
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What was said was that i had learned (in college) Elizabethian English class that words ending in 'th' are continuous present tense (and since 1983) have not seen a variation to this rule, then it was asked what was missing...and there was no response...
(who is not answering who???)

yet i quite debating that and looked into the greek and the contextual issues srurrounding this one and only verse, that posted here was stated to mean something in opposition to other scriptures.

It was told that that had not been read in the greek as the first post was a firsthand response from a quick perusal of it. Later Hebrews was read in the Syriatic Text, the Textus Receptus (Trinitarian Bible Societies version then Stephens) and the Otogra.

Where are these straw men being knocked down???? Please be more blunt and to the point. What in the world are you referring to?
____________________________________________________________

The theme of Galatians is Paul fighting the notion that there are now 2 covenants coinciding, and that even if you are in the new, you must still perform the works of the old. Paul teaches that the Old pointed to Christ. Now that CHrist is here, we must walk in the New, and distinctly NOT the Old.
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Is this what someone else has led you to believe or something you have researched???

See, what Paul called 'the concision' was actually a Judaic gnostic sect that had crept into the Galatian church (and others), which were then known as Nazarenes and/or Ebonites.

It was not an arguement against God's Torah at all but all about these Ebonites convincing the Galatians that the Levitical ceremonial portions of the Mosaic Law had to be obeyed (to the letter), starting with circomcision or as they proclaimed,you just were not in covenant with God.
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Jesus said he fulfilled the law and the prophets. He rebuked the Pharisees for obeying the Old but not recognizing that it was now fully revealed, and that the New is here. True, he stated that he did not come to abolish the Old. He didn't. He embodied it. And now our lives are enjoined to Him who fulfilled the Old Covenant, through the New Covenant.
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...and because our lives are enjoined in Him, according to His revelation to us as individuals grows, we will walk as He walked. We too will embody the Law, doing good and healing all that are oppressed of the devil. (It is your own choice whether you will affirm this and act accordingly or not.)

Fulfilled does not mean ended at all, because He said he did not come to end the Law, and that this would not occur til' all of the prophets are made complete and heaven and earth passes away.

So, praytell, when has heaven and earth passed away?
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The theme of Hebrews is that we are now under a BETTER covenant with BETTER promises. Not an additional covenant with additional promises. If the Old is still in play then Jesus came and died for nothing. But Jesus FULFILLED the Old. There is now no functioning of the Old because there is no need of priests, sacrifices, altars, temples, etc. because HE IS all that. He accomplished all that.
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So what you are saying is that the whole old testament and the first 4 books of New Testament are invalid according to your line of reasoning. This also negates John's other writings (I-3 and Revelation), some of Peter's, Jude's writings, etc are all invalid as these all promote obedience to the precepts commanded in scriptures.

Yeah, better covenant, but why? The answer to the 'why' is the issue being driven at regarding this whole thread, especially in Hebrews.

This leaves only Paul's writings (some of which must definitely be ignored) and possibly Hebrews if all of these are properly misinterpreted.
(Is this correct?)
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No one here is advocating antinomianism, if that's what you are thinking. But the law is no longer on tables of stone, it is written in our hearts. One of distinct changes that took place once the NEW and BETTER came.
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This prophecy both in Jeremiah and Hebrews remain in the future tense and neither book states that these things have already occured.

Let's call a spade a spade.

You call it antinomianism, but it's anarchy.



To say that you have God's Law written on you heart is to also say that it is already written in your mind (because this is what this prophecy says), so you can just throw that Bible away completely right?

Just do what you think you think God says, quit with the sermons and learning scripture because it's already written in you mind and on your heart.

This is where you line of reasoning leads.

Get a grip.
The perfect has not yet come.
When you know as you are known, then it shall be on your heart and in your mind.

Now all things are appropriated by faith through God's grace, and it is only through complete and utter dependence in Christ Jesus that these things grow into manifestation in our lives.

If the Torah were written on Paul's heart and in his mind, why then did he himself express the need for his 'books' while imprisoned?

Why did the first churches need the reading of scripture and teachers/preachers, prophets, apostles, etc...since the law was already written on their hearts and minds?

Are you saying the christianity today has evolved into something far superior to the first churches?


To say that the Torah is in your heart and written on your mind is to say that you know the Law inside and out. If this is the case explain it.

Your words are the expression of what you feel. This can be empathised with deeply as i have been where you are now; yet, i would never go back.

What i have written i do feel as well, yet this is secondary to what the Bible actually says, no matter how i may feel about it.

( i did not want to write that it was a revelation to me that the Torah is valid as long as heaven and earth still remain. i should have clearly seen this all along.)

I could care less about the anarchy of antinomianism, but the source of it need be torn down. Most 'so-called christians today base what they call faith working through love on their feelings (from their hearts. To say that our hearts have been changed already is to decieve ourselves into thinking we are complete. If our hearts have been changed completely, we do not sin, yet the Bible states in so many different ways we do sin.

Thank you for being kind enough to state things from your perspective, and though all this was written swiftly, what you have said is held in high enough regard to make it as this desktop picture for the time being to consider these things.


Perhaps, as you say, the texts sent, (or even me):
Distasteful
Disregarding discussion
'pet' theologies(?)
Some like to have a god of sundays and wednesdays, never letting God take part in every activity of the day and night. i can't do that anymore. Jesus came as the way into abundant life in everything experience and that is my pet theology. Anything that is recognized to lead away from being in Him in this will always be derailed, especially among those who claim His name.

You stating of the theme of Hebrews is agreed with completely. This is not:but to think that God's covenant with Adam, for one example, has nothing to do with the New, as Paul points out it does in Romans 5 and Galatians 3 is to say that the New covenant is not the making of it fully completely valid (full fill) negates everything that God follows up with promise and so on through all the covenants which were all incomplete as they remained only promises in shadow until Jesus bled and died.

It is wished that you gave some scriptural basis for what you have written rather than only what you think and feel.

You may or may not like what is written from here, but whether it ticks you off or gives you the warm fizzies, you writing shows that you are thinking about what is typed.
You will continue to remember these things, and i do remember so many of you in prayers here, and pray for your best in all things, whether at present we agree about some things or not.

Unity of the Faith once and for all delivered has to start somewhere no matter how we feel about these things. Let's get into the scriptures and dig in deep and see just how all things point to Jesus Christ, without Whom, no man shall see God.

Today, (something like Neil would say,) we are shaking off the lues of Roman-lite.

Are you on the same page or not?





here, let's end with this:


Wisdom strengtheneth the wise more than ten mighty men which are in the city. For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Also take no heed unto all words that are spoken; lest thou hear thy servant curse thee: For oftentimes also thine own heart knoweth that thou thyself likewise hast cursed others.

All this have I proved by wisdom: I said, I will be wise; but it was far from me. That which is far off, and exceeding deep, who can find it out? I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness...
Eccl. 7.19-25

 2010/8/11 0:51









 Re:

by ADisciple on 2010/8/10 16:47:21

For any who might be having trouble with the posts on this thread claiming that the Old Covenant is still in effect (it’s astonishing that Christians should even have to give this the time of day) …but here are three other passages of Scripture besides the ones in Hebrews that show plainly that this is simply not true.

“And you being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh hath he quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to His cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it” (Col. 2.13-15).

Quite something, that. The “handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us…” And what would that be? Merely the ceremonial law? No, it’s the whole of the Law, in fact particularly the Ten Commandments, that was against us and contrary to us. And God took it “out of the way, nailing it to His Cross…”
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AD, this is speaking of ordinances, which are the penalty for disobedience to the Law and not the actual precepts commanding towards obedience to the Law.

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That’s confirmed here also:

“For He is our peace who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make (create) in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby…” (Eph. 2.14-16).

What is abolished, or rendered powerless… made of no effect? “The law of commandments contained in ordinances…” That’s the “fence” that separated Jew and Gentile, the fence the Jews gloried in… and God tore it down at the Cross! And His purpose in it was to create of both Jew (under the Law) and Gentile (not under that Law) ONE NEW MAN in Christ, in Him having slain “the enmity,” that is, the Law, slaying the Law in His cross, and then rising from the dead the beginning of a NEW CREATION with a Law that is part of His very nature now: even “the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus,” which becomes the Law of the Covenant He joins us to, that is, those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk “not after the flesh but after the Spirit” (Rom. 8.4).

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The Law is not what is abolished but the partition between Jew and Gentile. Read that passage in context with what surrounds it.

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What wonderful things are here!

…And then this passage in 2 Corinthians in which Paul speaks of those who had a veil over their hearts and minds “in the reading of the old testament,” and because of that veil could not see that that covenant—the one he calls old now—is “done away in Christ.” (2 Cor. 3.14). And he goes on, adding, “But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.” Notice, Paul uses the same word here we find in Hebrews, calling “the ministration of death” the “OLD covenant.”

Paul is referring to the passage in Exodus Ch. 34 where Moses has come down from the mount with the tables of testimony in his hand, and his face is shining with the reflected glory of God that came upon him “while he talked with Him” (Ex. 34.29). And so Moses, with this glory upon his face, speaks with the children of Israel what God has spoken with him. But as Moses ministered… and Exodus 34 is a bit vague here, but the apostle makes it clear what happened, and why Moses put the veil on his face. He didn’t put the veil on while he was speaking to them, but “that (or, so that) the children of Israel could not steadfastly look TO THE END of that which is abolished” (2 Cor. 3.13). Why would he do that? It was “the end” of it all that Moses was veiling. It appears he was moving prophetically, for the tragic hour would come when the children of Israel would be unable to see that the covenant they gloried in was fading and in fact being done away and brought to an end, as Paul explains in the very next verse: “But their minds were blinded: for until this day the same veil remaineth untaken away in the reading of the old testament…”

…This is all very clear, and conclusive to the open heart. If the old covenant were still in effect it would not be called old now. There is a very obvious reason why it’s called “old” now. It’s because there is a NEW and better covenant in place now.

…This issue has been dealt with thoroughly over and over again on this thread. The fact that it is still being brought up again and again is clear evidence of this very veil Paul speaks of.

But there is hope: “Nevertheless, when it (the heart) shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away. Now ‘the Lord’ is the Spirit…”

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The above in all three instance (you mention (has been) covered in previous posts. Rather than as BeYeDoers states, that what is being done from here is repeating thing thinking that somehow this makes them more right, you go back and reread and see that what you are doing for the most part is either taking passages out of context or claiming they are saying something they are not saying in the perpetration of this.

If you do not read the former posts you might just lack the proper understanding to see where this is leading to or knowledge towards use when we get there.

If it is wished to keep belief as something that is only an argument from the head and not a walk in covenant abounding in all physical affairs forget these suggestions.

Moving foreward,
g

p.s. The backhand flips are getting tiresome. If posts addressed regarding something stated from here has been covered already, this will be typed: <A. C.> meaning that it has already been dealt with in this thread.


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 2010/8/11 1:12









 Re:

by Christinyou on 2010/8/10 18:13:35

Subverters of Souls
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Look up Ebonites on wik, and see exactly what these subverters were.

God Bless,
g

 2010/8/11 1:15









 Re:

by knitefall on 2010/8/10 18:37:37

Thanks for the much need ed words.

Between what you and BeYeDoers have said, the problem is seen.

I'm going to take his advice to now sit back and read on.

This whole thread started 3 days after prayers from here went before His throne to have a comprehensive single unit to give followers of Jesus as a 5 part series on "The Everlasting Covenant."

There was a part 5 that was already written here a while back and is piecemeal at best, yet it formed the basis towards greater understanding gleaned in this thread.

I think the bottom line is what Paul said that now all things are lawful, yet not all things are beneficial.

i am not pushing the law as something that must be adhered to, but only that it is valid in a greater sense than ever before, Jesus being our example in this. We benefit in faithfully obeying Torah and recieve His grace in this yet we do not have to choose to do this. Jesus did not say that anybody following Him would go to hell. He said that he would tell those who did not do what was right (Rom 7.12) to leave His presence, and at the other extreme, those who walks in Him so that even the yud and Kotz were observed would be called great in the kingdom of heaven, and a "come enter the joys prepared."

All that is attempted to get accross at this point, because those who fight against this truth so vehemently, is that there are consequences to whatever we do, reward and punishment, both being gifts of His grace, (Gal. 6.7 & II Cor. 5.10).

God bless you for the insight to stand back and overview, and then write.

Even if this thread takes a wrong turn from here on out, there has been enough from here made clear that anybody reading can make a rational conscious choice to decide 'yea' or 'nay' with full knowledge.

Still reading on and praying for all participating, as the many already here at SI:
Shalom,
g

p.s. Primarily pray for Greg and support him in every way the Lord leads you. Without God giving him this vision, and his obedience to this, so much would not be happening right now that is direly needed in these days when night is falling in so many places already.

 2010/8/11 1:46





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